Condition 1 - cocked and locked - technical question

[ISCS Yoda]

Here and there in various articles in this and that magazine I see gunwriters discussing carrying a 1911 or similar guns cocked and locked as if that was the specifically designed mode of carry from the outset, in 1911, that John Moses Browning designed the gun for that exact mode of carry, etc.

Does anyone know if that is the actual truth?

I know that the late, lamented Colonel Jeff Cooper advocated it and gun technicians for years have advocated it. However, during my time in the United States Army I never saw anyone carry a 1911 that way, the typical military flap holster is not really appropriate for Condition 1 carry, and the training videos/combat videos I saw always showed 1911s being drawn and racked for fighting/shooting.

So, along with my first question above, were any of you police or military veterans trained to carry your 1911s cocked and locked by your departments - not later by instructors influenced by Jeff Cooper?

 

[LVSteve]

If I ate popcorn I'd cook up a big bag about now....

 

[steveno]

make sure there is a LOT butter

 

[PPS1980]

My recollection from my fascination with this issue in the 70s and 80s is that the WWI manuals indicated carry was recommended with rounds in the magazine, magazine inserted, no round chambered. So, Condition 3: Chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down.

 

[PALADIN85020]

When I was in the Army, regulations usually prescribed carrying it with a loaded magazine, empty chamber, hammer down. This required removing it from the holster and jacking a round into the chamber in order to fire it.

I once watched the old TV show "You asked for it." They showed an Army Master Sergeant who was skilled in loading the chamber with the pistol still in the holster, by twisting it, catching the area under the muzzle on an internal shelf in the holster, shoving the gun down to load the chamber, and then withdrawing it - this was done with one hand, and he was lightning fast, being able to bring the gun to bear and shooting it in less than two seconds.

I was never that skilled with that maneuver, and had to suffer the handicap of the mode of carry the Army wanted. If it was up to me, I would have carried cocked and locked, and have done so a lot in civilian life.

John

 

[RGVshooter]

Ok I'll bite.

I don't have any popcorn but I do have chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream....

1911 pistols are designed to be carried "cocked & locked". In the appropriate holster they can be very safe to carry that way. I will add that open carrying a 1911 in a shoulder holster would not be appropriate however. Get my drift?

 

[Rule3]

Ok I'll bite.

I don't have any popcorn but I do have chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream....

1911 pistols are designed to be carried "cocked & locked". In the appropriate holster they can be very safe to carry that way. I will add that open carrying a 1911 in a shoulder holster would not be appropriate however. Get my drift?

But, but the OP was looking for "proof"

 

[ISCS Yoda]

But, but the OP was looking for "proof"

Correct.

The design "permits" Condition One carry. But from the anecdotal evidence above, it seems that it was never intentionally planned for that mode of carry by the Army.

My point being that I find it annoying when gunwriters talk about it being the standard for 100 years and they are dead wrong.

 

[Rule3]

It's probably in some manual but they are to long to search

From here. Not that this is "proof"

American Rifleman | Conditions of Readiness for the 1911 Pistol

Condition Three
In this condition the pistol contains a loaded magazine, the chamber is empty and the hammer is down. In order to fire the pistol, the slide must be cycled so that a cartridge is loaded into the chamber.
Condition Three is the method used by the U.S. military when the 1911 was the standard issue pistol. Due to the fact that relatively little training time was spent with the pistol, my guess is that our military believed this was the safest method. The downside of Condition Three is that it takes just a bit of extra time to get the 1911 ready to fire, which can be a bit disconcerting if one is already experiencing incoming fire. In recent years, this has also become known as the “Israeli Method” because Israeli police and soldiers who carry a single-action auto have adopted this carry method.

 

[RGVshooter]

it seems that it was never intentionally planned for that mode of carry by the Army.

But the Army didn't design the pistol.

What does John Browning say about how the pistol should be carried? Surely there must be documentation out there somewhere, in the form of owners manual or instructions from the manufacture.. I'm sure owners manuals from today's sue happy world are cover to cover full or large RED warnings telling the owner not to carry it that way, or keep it unloaded until ready to shoot etc etc. But what about instruction booklets or literature from yesteryear?

 

[rperillo05]

I would think Condition 3 would be the less likely scenario. More so 2 if they felt 1 was an unsafe method of carry.

 

[TomkinsSP]

Permit a silly observation. The Army did not intend for any of its troops to go into battle with a 1911 as their primary weapon. 03's, Garand, BAR sure, but weren't the 1911s meant to be carried by officers and operators of crew served weapons?

Condition 3 would suffice for a loader or gunner on a tank or artillery piece. He only needs it in dire circumstance. Condition 4 (empty chamber, ask an NCO for the loaded magazine) is safest for Louies.

 

[ContinentalOp]

Actually, to some extent, the Army did design the pistol...sort of. The original version of the pistol designed by Browning had neither grip safety nor thumb safety. Those were added at the request of the Army. The grip safety was intended as a drop safety as dropping a cocked gun with its steel trigger could cause it to fire. The thumb safety was a request by the Cavalry so that a soldier could engage the safety on a cocked gun with one hand if the other hand was needed to regain control of an unruly horse.

So, as far as I could find, it seems that Browning didn't intend for his pistol to be carried in Condition 1. However, I haven't found anything yet that would count as irrefutable evidence.

 

[Watchdog]

If I ate popcorn I'd cook up a big bag about now....

make sure there is a LOT butter

I'm just wonderin' about cocked and locked while open carrying on a bear hunt...

 

[Rule3]

From the article I posted and several others.

Col. Cooper was the "individual" that "developed" the whole Condition 123 system.

Some years ago, Col. Jeff Cooper, founder of Gunsite Academy and creator of the "modern technique" of handgun shooting, described the conditions of readiness for defensive use of the 1911 pistol as Condition One, Condition Two and Condition Three. They are described here, in reverse order.

With a 1911 in a proper holster, OK carry in condition one.

For these new pocket pistol 380 and 9mm single action with NO grip safety I would not carry it cocked and "semi locked"!

JMO

 

[cmort666]

1. When I was on active duty in the '80s, it was hammer down on an empty chamber.
2. Having been in the Army, I'm VERY selective in the lessons I draw from what the Army does.
3. I ONLY carry cocked and locked. Giving a violent assailant an "edge" isn't a priority for me. It's not even a consideration.

 

[oneounceload]

For these new pocket pistol 380 and 9mm single action with NO grip safety I would not carry it cocked and "semi locked"!

I would take the new Wilson EDC X9, a 9mm with no grip safety any day loaded

 

[Onomea]

I'm just wonderin' about cocked and locked while open carrying on a bear hunt...

While smoking medical marijuana for your bum knees.

 

[Watchdog]

While smoking medical marijuana for your bum knees.

Stop that!

 

[SOS24]

While I was in the Navy the Condition the gun was carried depended on the Force Protection Condition that the ship was in, as to how imminent a threat there was. There were times when the weapon was carried in Condition I. The hesitation in carrying “cocked and locked” was because of the limited amount of actual training that personnel had and the frequency that the gun would be issued, transferred, turned in, etc.