Condition % values

[tlay]

Is there a reference somewhere that gives a guide to our Smiths finish % ? I have looked at many guns that say they are 95% and they all vary. How do we rate our finish with any kind of guide? My 95% gun may be vastly different than yours.

 

[DWalt]

Condition is highly subjective and in many cases imprecise. Much depends upon whether you are a buyer or a seller. The Blue Book has a series of color photos indicating various percentages of condition. Stamps, coins, baseball cards, comic books, etc. all have much more precise grading standards.

 

[rburg]

Our rating system is awful to say the least. Any rating system, to be worth much, must be repeatable by different individuals. Its not.

First, understand that the used gun market may actually have some honest people. But we also have a bunch of ruthless crooks. So most collectors have established a rating that doesn't make fractional percentage stops. We list a gun that you'd think is perfect at 98%, and I've never seen a 100% gun. I've looked at a bunch, and factory new isn't always even 98%. Then we reduce it down to 95%, which shows very little wear or even handling marks. Then the next drop is to 90% and is still really nice, and just out of what most feel is collectors grade or investment grade. Call it a great condition shooter. We then drop it to 80% or 80 to 85%. Those seem to be very nice shooters. Below 80% is still a shooter, but what most would consider showing considerable honest wear. Below that it really doesn't matter too much.

So back to the issue at hand. Anyone who rates any gun at 93.4% is just a crook trying to blow smoke up your rear end. He can rate a gun anyway he pleases, but no one else can take the gun and objectively repeat his ratings. At that point the exercise becomes smoke and mirrors, and is usually an attempt to squeeze a potential customer into thinking the gun is better than it really is, or that the rater is a real expert. I'd guess he's a crook. I wince whenever I see anyone who feels he's got the expertise to rate a gun that closely. I like the ratings used by David Carroll or Jim Supica use. You get the gun and are pleasantly surprised at how good it is to be rated that low. But you won't see them stooping to over rate a gun. Their reputation is too important.

Want a fun game to play? Pick up a gun or two and go to a gathering of gun nuts. Pull the gun out and ask the "experts" to rate the gun as best they can. Your numbers come in all over the board, and particularly with guys who have no stake in the game. When someone is selling their own gun, you seem to see high ratings that aren't justified. Give them some slack, they're just trying to puff up the value of their gun. Then run from any deal they propose.

 

[jsfricks]

Our rating system is awful to say the least. Any rating system, to be worth much, must be repeatable by different individuals. Its not.

First, understand that the used gun market may actually have some honest people. But we also have a bunch of ruthless crooks. So most collectors have established a rating that doesn't make fractional percentage stops. We list a gun that you'd think is perfect at 98%, and I've never seen a 100% gun. I've looked at a bunch, and factory new isn't always even 98%. Then we reduce it down to 95%, which shows very little wear or even handling marks. Then the next drop is to 90% and is still really nice, and just out of what most feel is collectors grade or investment grade. Call it a great condition shooter. We then drop it to 80% or 80 to 85%. Those seem to be very nice shooters. Below 80% is still a shooter, but what most would consider showing considerable honest wear. Below that it really doesn't matter too much.

So back to the issue at hand. Anyone who rates any gun at 93.4% is just a crook trying to blow smoke up your rear end. He can rate a gun anyway he pleases, but no one else can take the gun and objectively repeat his ratings. At that point the exercise becomes smoke and mirrors, and is usually an attempt to squeeze a potential customer into thinking the gun is better than it really is, or that the rater is a real expert. I'd guess he's a crook. I wince whenever I see anyone who feels he's got the expertise to rate a gun that closely. I like the ratings used by David Carroll or Jim Supica use. You get the gun and are pleasantly surprised at how good it is to be rated that low. But you won't see them stooping to over rate a gun. Their reputation is too important.

Want a fun game to play? Pick up a gun or two and go to a gathering of gun nuts. Pull the gun out and ask the "experts" to rate the gun as best they can. Your numbers come in all over the board, and particularly with guys who have no stake in the game. When someone is selling their own gun, you seem to see high ratings that aren't justified. Give them some slack, they're just trying to puff up the value of their gun. Then run from any deal they propose.

Very good. I too try to use David Carroll's style of rating guns. He provides nice, detailed photos and it really over exposes any flaws. But looking at what he rates these at helps me to rate mine.

 

[GF]

Good post by Dick Burg ... and I appreciate him only referring to Dave & I in the abstract, " ... we also have a bunch of ruthless crooks."

But I digress.

Grading by percent is where the Blue Book of Gun Values is today, outdated. Good quality pictures are a standard for internet sales and any time guns can't be hand held.

A gun you can see doesn't need a percent grade - does the condition reflect the price asked to warrant a sale.

GF

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Good post by Dick Burg ... and I appreciate him only referring to Dave & I in the abstract, " ... we also have a bunch of ruthless crooks."

But I digress.

Grading by percent is where the Blue Book of Gun Values is today, outdated. Good quality pictures are a standard for internet sales and any time guns can't be hand held.

A gun you can see doesn't need a percent grade - does the condition reflect the price asked to warrant a sale.

GF

What would you know about it? All of yours are MINT!

 

[tlay]

Thanks for the replies. What would you say to one with just barely a turn line and no rub marks. I would have rated it a 98% but now if 98% is like new I am not sure. Also say it is in the same condition and the grips are in like condition but not numbered to the gun. Is it still 98% but with non numbered grips? Thanks.

 

[rwsmith]

The bore and the mechanics......

The bore and the mechanics need to be rated separately from the cosmetic. I'll take a beat-up gun if it is in good mechanical shape.

Problem is people usually only describe the cosmetics.

 

[steamloco76]

The bore and the mechanics need to be rated separately from the cosmetic. I'll take a beat-up gun if it is in good mechanical shape.

Problem is people usually only describe the cosmetics.

Oh so true. I recently looked at a 1920's Colt Police Positive .32 Colt with original box and papers. Cosmetics were 95% and a little wax would make it look nearly flawless. However, inspection of the bore showed major pitting and some rust. Not worth the collector grade money they were asking.

 

[rburg]

All of yours are MINT!

No, no, no. Mint is the flavor of the wax used to mask the smell of cold blue!

 

[crsides]

My %'s for the same gun are going to be higher than Dick's. This based on what I see from other (seller's) rating. It startw at 100% and a very light turn line may take it down to 99%. add a few nicks and its 98%. A 97% gun is showing some wear. 95% is getting into shooter grade. I hate to grade a gun with %, never understood it very well.

Charlie

 

[rct269]

tlay---I'd rate your "just barely a turn line and no rub marks" at 99 to 99.5---depending on what "just barely" means, whether I was buying or selling. As far as the grips go, I'd expect the grips to match the rating of the gun----never mind matching the serial number. I'm always happy when the grips are numbered to the gun-----but I'm not sad if they don't.

Now back to "just barely": "Just barely" means (to me) you can see the turn line---but there's no finish missing. I'd call that like new. If you want to put a number on it---half a point. If there's ANY finish missing, it's a full point. If there's a lot of finish missing---in other words a gun that's been shot or played with a lot---another full point.

It (% rating) is most assuredly not a science. It's an art. Those who have sung David Carroll's praises are dead bang on the money----same with Supica (back when). Every gun I've ever bought from either was better than I expected.

I could go on, but then I'd probably start talking about folks whose merchandise was generally worse than I expected----and the marketplace has already dealt with them----and will continue to do so!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[murphydog]

Thanks for the replies. What would you say to one with just barely a turn line and no rub marks. I would have rated it a 98% but now if 98% is like new I am not sure. Also say it is in the same condition and the grips are in like condition but not numbered to the gun. Is it still 98% but with non numbered grips? Thanks.

As others stated, better to have a very specific description and clear photos (or best, a direct inspection) of the gun in question rather than assigning a percentage. Having said that, you are describing one that would bring a new gun value, assuming bore/chamber/mechanicals are in line with the overall condition.

Personally, having correct but non-matching numbered stocks in the appropriate condition for the gun would not decrease value significantly, if at all. It is possible, however, a gun shipped with non-standard stocks and you wouldn't know it had incorrect replacements without a factory letter.

 

[tlay]

Thanks for the input. I have bought and sold many Smiths recently and still have a hard time determining %. One last question. Say you have a 90% gun with the incorrect grips. Would you price it to show the buyer as having to buy the correct grips? This would be after selling the incorrect ones. Thanks.

 

[murphydog]

Personally, if they are the correct type but not matched I would leave them on for sale. If they are incorrect I would disclose this and let the buyer decide on keeping them or not. If you do a lot of buying/trading you'll probably find use for them on another gun...don't ask me how I know .

 

[vipermd]

Thanks for the input. I have bought and sold many Smiths recently and still have a hard time determining %. One last question. Say you have a 90% gun with the incorrect grips. Would you price it to show the buyer as having to buy the correct grips? This would be after selling the incorrect ones. Thanks.[/QUOTE

A 90 % is 90%- Cosmetic. Grips incorrect for the time the gun was shipped, made?? or ruger grips on a smith? Let the customer know. If it is mechanically sound, I believe you are describing the finish. I can not discern between a 95.9/96.4/97.0 %, as stated above, I have received "new" guns from the factory that were not 100% ( 629- small scuff on the barrel from the factory- After firing 6 rds of stout 44's that all went into the 10 or X, I could care less about the "scuff". Be Honest, if someone wants a % from me on something I am selling, I drop 5% from what I "believe" it to be, that way the customer gets a 96-97-99% or whatever THEY decide when I rated it at 95. Clear photos from every angle, I will do 30-40 photos per gun, since I do not want to miss anything that someone might want to see. Be Safe,