Confused Apex Trigger / Sights

[texasrimfirenut]

Guys, my new m&p 9 I really like however as many of you experienced I also have a really gritty and heavy trigger. Really fits my short fat fingers good and even though I don't shoot good at all with a pistol I am shooting much better groups than I have before with any of my other pistols. 10 yrds = 3" group. I know that sucks but much better than the 8" groups I usually shoot with a pistol. I don't shoot pistols much since I suck so bad but have plans to really work on this with this new m&p.

Mine is pretty new, week old and 500 rounds through it.

Anyways, I am a little confused on which apex trigger package to buy. The folks at Apex were great with customer support when I emailed and called. They recommended the DCAEK kit or the Forward Set Sear and Trigger Kit but only if my m&p had some newer spring in it, would it work. Mine has a fire date of 11/2013 but the nice lady I spoke with said they are hearing of newer m&ps having this older spring in it and this kit would absolutely not work in that case. Said the only way to know was to break it down. Although its supposed to be easy I plan to have a smith install everything as I don't have the tool to move the sight over out of the way. The forward set sear kit sounds better to me as the trigger weight would be around 4 to 4.5#s and she noted 75% of the pretravel and over travel would be gone along with the grittiness.

Then I came along this: Apex Tactical Forward Set Trigger Kit Smith & Wesson M&P Polymer Black

This seems to have just about everything. Seems like anyways.

Here are my issues and goals:

Very gritty trigger
Lots of pretravel
Heavy trigger, not for sure with no gauge but seems very heavy would like 4.5 - 5# trigger

Use: Mainly carry in the truck and around the farm and hunting/bushcrafting in the woods in a holster. May try my hand in IDPA or one of the others but no way a priority. I would just like to participate in some activity sport to be around other shooters and to learn and get better. This will NOT be a conceal carry weapon for me.

I am a lefty and am shooting low and right. Talked to a trainer and he said its fairly common and should be fairly easily correctable with some training. I will be taking this training as soon as this gun is fixed up. I shoot all my pistols low & right. For some reason I shoot my revolvers pretty much dead on. I am a crappy pistol shooter so I've always stayed away from working on it and stuck to my benchrest long guns where I am pretty successful.

While I am at putting all the parts in and since that rear sight has to come off, I thought I'd go ahead and upgrade the sights. I am looking for recommendations for those as well. My goals with the sights are:

Adjustable windage & elevation sights.
Night sights are great but not a deal killer
Low rise so I have no holstering issues

Sorry for the mini-novel but with my lack of experience I wanted to put as much info out as I could so I could get some help here.

Plan to order all my parts tonight.

Thanks guys!

 

[Mushki]

You need to decide for yourself the role this pistol will have before you begin changing things. It's never cost effective to change stuff just to change things.

Ex. If you do plan to shoot idpa, the fss trigger kit will move you to the enhanced service pistol division while the comp and duty kit allow you to shoot stock. Either way you will want a fiber optic sight up front.

Ex.2. If you want this to be your carry gun you may wish to install the duty kit and night sights.

Bottom line define its purpose then change the gun to fit the purpose.

By the way I am also a lefty. Your low right problem will go away with better trigger control gained by practice. You can dry fire away any trigger pull problems in the comfort of your own home.

 

[BennyS]

Great response above. Even after putting apex kit and trigger in my shield I was ok but now I'm dead on, why? Practice, practice, practice

 

[Llando88]

Lefty also. New FS9 bought 11/13; I put in the DCAEK and Apex poly trigger and never looked back. 5.6 lb pull. I love it.

Ditto above on IDPA/USPSA. You may want to keep the stock trigger if that is a consideration.

I have Trijicon HDs and they are outstanding sights.

Rich in Tampa

 

[robkarrob]

The following video shows how to determine where the gritty feeling is coming from. Also don't immediately think that the Apex kit solves all. I installed the Apex kit and I still had the gritty pull. S&W left a nice sized burr, in the striker blocker bore hole, that was causing my gritty feeling. The Apex kit will reduce the trigger pull length by about 1/32 inch, and reduce the over-travel by about 3/32 inch. The total trigger pull length reduction is about 1/8 inch, but the offset is that the trigger take-up (trigger at rest to rearward pull distance until contacting the sear) is increased by 1/8 inch, and some people do not like excessive take-up. The biggest benefit, of the Apex DCAEK kit, is it will reduce the trigger pull weight to about 5 to 5.5 pounds, in most guns. If you retain the stock trigger spring and stock sear spring, the pull weight will drop another 1 full pound (4 to 4.5 pounds), as the Apex supplied springs have higher tension, than the stock springs. Polishing the blocker tab on the trigger bar, as mentioned in the video, reduces the gritty feeling on a lot of M&P pistols. Others have the same issue that I had, a burr in the blocker bore, causing the gritty trigger pull.

I don't think you find any low rise adjustable sights. To be adjustable they require more space, for the adjusting mechanism.


Bob



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGnPDjJCY1s

 

[texasrimfirenut]

You need to decide for yourself the role this pistol will have before you begin changing things. It's never cost effective to change stuff just to change things.

Ex. If you do plan to shoot idpa, the fss trigger kit will move you to the enhanced service pistol division while the comp and duty kit allow you to shoot stock. Either way you will want a fiber optic sight up front.

Ex.2. If you want this to be your carry gun you may wish to install the duty kit and night sights.

Bottom line define its purpose then change the gun to fit the purpose.

By the way I am also a lefty. Your low right problem will go away with better trigger control gained by practice. You can dry fire away any trigger pull problems in the comfort of your own home.

Thanks for the reply!

I might and that's a big might shoot something like IDPA but I was trying to say competition should not be the deciding factor for what kit goes in. I am the type that if I got into it more formally I'd set up a gun for just that. 90% of this guns duty will be setting the in truck for "just in case" and then being carried around my farm in it's holster while I am out on the tractor, camping or hunting in the woods or I often go out into the woods and play bushcraft. I have a range here in the backyard with berm and permanent benches so of course I'll be out there with family and friends just shooting the gun there. So nope, I'd say no consideration for IDPA in the decision making.

Also it won't be a conceal carry weapon as I have other guns much smaller I use for that. Considering a shield for that but we'll see how this project goes before I make that decision.

To be honest, I have the CZ 75, CZ P07 Duty and a Taraus copy of the 92 plus a few other 22 pistols like the Ruger SR 22, 22/45 and the M&P 22. None of them have triggers this heavy nor do they come even anywhere close to the grittiness of the m&p 9. Of course I shoot most all the above mentioned in single action mode but I had to have the M&P 9 after I shot a friends M&P 22 and purchased the same gun. Again even though I am a poor pistol shot I am shooting better with the m&Ps. I think its because they fit my fat hand and short fat fingers better. Especially on the 92 I have to kind of rotate my hand on the grip a bit so my trigger finger can get to the trigger. Only ones I don't have a problem with like that are the Ruger SR22 and these M&Ps.

I am convinced the M&P is for me. I spent a month researching it VS the Glock 17, handled them and everything else. With the small grip on the m&p 9, my finger can reach past the trigger gard so no reaching for the trigger anymore and I knew and expected from my research that I was going to do a trigger job. I do trigger jobs on most every gun I own. Habit of being a benchrest shooter. I have three 22s that I have set less than 1# for bench shooting. I am used to and like lighter triggers. My 22/45 is probably set to around 3#s or so.

Don't think I want to go that low on this one. I think 4.5 to 5# range would be right.

Thanks again for the help and sorry I didn't explain well enough in the original post.

 

[texasrimfirenut]

Great response above. Even after putting apex kit and trigger in my shield I was ok but now I'm dead on, why? Practice, practice, practice

Oh I totally agree. I plan on taking a class from a multi-time world champion steel challenge guy or his Dad, whichever one has the time to fit me in the quickest.

My philosophy was to get the gun like I wanted it to be (the guy above will be doing the work on the gun too), take the class and learn proper shooting form and the basics I've never learned before and then shoot, shoot, shoot.

I might go with the above guys and shoot some steel and IDPA stuff, just to learn and get more practice.

I learned while shooting competitive archery to never shoot with my peers. Always shoot with the guys that are superior to your skills, lol.

 

[texasrimfirenut]

Lefty also. New FS9 bought 11/13; I put in the DCAEK and Apex poly trigger and never looked back. 5.6 lb pull. I love it.

Ditto above on IDPA/USPSA. You may want to keep the stock trigger if that is a consideration.

I have Trijicon HDs and they are outstanding sights.

Rich in Tampa

Thanks! Yes I don't think I would want to do anything to the trigger that puts me in another class if I decide I do want to shoot some IDPA with it.

I think I read somewhere if you put the Duty/Carry kit in but leave the original spring in, that will get the pistol down to around 4.5#s. That might be a good way for me to go if anyone can verify that for me.

By putting the Apex trigger in to help with the creep and over travel does that put the gun in a different class of IDPA? Again I don't want to fixated on IDPA as this isn't the purpose of the gun but it would just be nice to still have the option if I wanted to without going into another class.

I was hoping IDPA would have "DSWAS" class but they don't seem to. "Don't Shoot Worth A Sh??" class that is, lol.

 

[texasrimfirenut]

The following video shows how to determine where the gritty feeling is coming from. Also don't immediately think that the Apex kit solves all. I installed the Apex kit and I still had the gritty pull. S&W left a nice sized burr, in the striker blocker bore hole, that was causing my gritty feeling. The Apex kit will reduce the trigger pull length by about 1/32 inch, and reduce the over-travel by about 3/32 inch. The total trigger pull length reduction is about 1/8 inch, but the offset is that the trigger take-up (trigger at rest to rearward pull distance until contacting the sear) is increased by 1/8 inch, and some people do not like excessive take-up. The biggest benefit, of the Apex DCAEK kit, is it will reduce the trigger pull weight to about 5 to 5.5 pounds, in most guns. If you retain the stock trigger spring and stock sear spring, the pull weight will drop another 1 full pound (4 to 4.5 pounds), as the Apex supplied springs have higher tension, than the stock springs. Polishing the blocker tab on the trigger bar, as mentioned in the video, reduces the gritty feeling on a lot of M&P pistols. Others have the same issue that I had, a burr in the blocker bore, causing the gritty trigger pull.

I don't think you find any low rise adjustable sights. To be adjustable they require more space, for the adjusting mechanism.


Bob


Thanks a lot Bob, I think this video will help me a lot in understanding what is going on. I need to look into this. I'd be mighty disappointed if I spent that money and the grittiness was still there. Thanks for sharing.

 

[DanielF]

I would be very careful in choosing what to modify if it's going to be a gun that you may have to defend yourself with. The last thing you wanna do is end up in court with a gun that was "Modified to make it as efficient for killing as possible" I've heard horror stories about what anti-gun lawyers will do to make you look evil. Believe me I'm a tweaker myself but I'm a little skittish of changing internals due to the legal recourse I may be put threw because I had to use my gun to defend myself. You may wanna get the action polished and tuned first to see if that gets you were you wanna be. If all you've got in you're gun is really nicely finished stock parts they don't have a leg to stand on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[texasrimfirenut]

The following video shows how to determine where the gritty feeling is coming from. Also don't immediately think that the Apex kit solves all. I installed the Apex kit and I still had the gritty pull. S&W left a nice sized burr, in the striker blocker bore hole, that was causing my gritty feeling. The Apex kit will reduce the trigger pull length by about 1/32 inch, and reduce the over-travel by about 3/32 inch. The total trigger pull length reduction is about 1/8 inch, but the offset is that the trigger take-up (trigger at rest to rearward pull distance until contacting the sear) is increased by 1/8 inch, and some people do not like excessive take-up. The biggest benefit, of the Apex DCAEK kit, is it will reduce the trigger pull weight to about 5 to 5.5 pounds, in most guns. If you retain the stock trigger spring and stock sear spring, the pull weight will drop another 1 full pound (4 to 4.5 pounds), as the Apex supplied springs have higher tension, than the stock springs. Polishing the blocker tab on the trigger bar, as mentioned in the video, reduces the gritty feeling on a lot of M&P pistols. Others have the same issue that I had, a burr in the blocker bore, causing the gritty trigger pull.

I don't think you find any low rise adjustable sights. To be adjustable they require more space, for the adjusting mechanism.


Bob


Hey Bob, the grittiest part of my trigger is in the trigger takeup that you described. I don't feel or notice much grit when it finally get to the sear. Any idea on that?

 

[texasrimfirenut]

I would be very careful in choosing what to modify if it's going to be a gun that you may have to defend yourself with. The last thing you wanna do is end up in court with a gun that was "Modified to make it as efficient for killing as possible" I've heard horror stories about what anti-gun lawyers will do to make you look evil. Believe me I'm a tweaker myself but I'm a little skittish of changing internals due to the legal recourse I may be put threw because I had to use my gun to defend myself. You may wanna get the action polished and tuned first to see if that gets you were you wanna be. If all you've got in you're gun is really nicely finished stock parts they don't have a leg to stand on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well I hope I never have to shoot anyone! Here in Texas you can shoot a punk kid out in the yard stealing hub caps off the car after dark. Me, never! I might shoot up in the air and try and scare the pants off of someone but I'd never shoot someone over something like that. Fact is, if someone was in my house unarmed and steeling, as long as they would turn and run when I came out, I'd never shoot them either. I'd only do it if my or my family's life depended on it.

I was always taught to never, ever point a gun at someone unless your mind is already made up that you have no choice but to stop that person's aggression. In that case, nothing to be concerned about as I would have had every intent to shoot them.

I ain't going to sweat that. Still again, I shutter to think I ever have to shoot someone. For home protection I have my shotgun by the bed and another over the top of the front door. And no I don't load #7 shot in there. It's 00 buckshot. Again if I ever pointed at anyone, I'd have the intention to stop their aggression.

You point is well taken though, has merit and thought out. Just isn't my nature to worry about things such as that much, lol.

 

[robkarrob]

Might just be some grit between the trigger and frame, because during take-up, the pull should be smooth. Or maybe S&W didn't get the trigger spring in correctly. Very easy to remove the trigger. Skip the sear housing removal, or if you are going to get the Apex kit, wait for it and do all at the same time. I have an Apex kit install video on my channel. Check this video for the trigger removal:

Bob


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnxzgGb-6aA

 

[texasrimfirenut]

Might just be some grit between the trigger and frame, because during take-up, the pull should be smooth. Or maybe S&W didn't get the trigger spring in correctly. Very easy to remove the trigger. Skip the sear housing removal, or if you are going to get the Apex kit, wait for it and do all at the same time. I have an Apex kit install video on my channel. Check this video for the trigger removal:

Bob


Thanks a lot Bob, I will go through all the videos.

 

[rdtompki]

I put the DCAEK in both of my wife's full-size M&P 9mm. The trigger pull is very close to 5 lbs. on each with the stock trigger spring. I'll keep track of the pull as we put rounds through the new parts before deciding whether to put in the Apex spring (or, more correctly, my wife will decide!).

 

[OKFC05]

I was hoping IDPA would have "DSWAS" class but they don't seem to. "Don't Shoot Worth A Sh??" class that is, lol.

Well, here's your first free lesson in IDPA:
CLASS is how well you shoot, and there IS a NOVICE class.
DIVISION is determined by your gun, and what they are trying to tell you is DON'T get the FSS kit if you are going to shoot IDPA Stock Service Pistol Division or USPSA Production Division. The new external trigger is not allowed in either.
The internal APEX kits are allowed.
I agree with the others that the grit is not automatically cured by add-on kits. My 2 M&P Pros are slick as glass after a little polishing and a lot of use.
Even people who have shot for years go through a learning curve with the "combat Tupperware," so concentrate on the fundamentals and hang in there.

 

[AGoyette]

I shoot USPSA and I have my cc permit. I have Apex parts in all our M&P's. On my carry guns, I have the DCAEK (duty/carry) kit in and the polymer trigger. I did leave my stock trigger and sear springs in. On my 3 competition guns I have the FSS kits in. We shoot in the limited division in USPSA. On one of my competition guns I have the trigger down to 2.5 lbs. I like the fact that I am still competitive but my changes have not bumped me up to the open division where a lot of the big boys play. We looked at shooting IDPA, but decided to stick with USPSA.

 

[Mushki]

After reviewing your post I see you know what you want out of the gun. If I understand correctly you want it to be a good shooter period and you have no intention of carrying the piece. I recommend either the comp kit, I have it and think its great. Clean and light, with apex ram added the reset still leaves abit to be desired but heh the guns made of plastic right. The fss kit is very nice as well I have two friend that swear by them and I have shot them a few times, they are nice. Personal preference if you ask me. They will not turn your m&p into a 1911 trigger.
For sights, if you do not intend to shoot the gun after dark nothing beat a quality fiber optic setup. I like warren tactical but there are plenty of good ones out there, Dawson, 10-8 and trijicon come to mind.
I would still recommend shooting a few hundred rounds until the gun tells you exactly what it needs. I shot my m&p pro a season of idpa before making changes and am happy with each change I made.
Good luck and enjoy

 

[richnlex]

I installed the Apex hard sear only not the whole trigger replacement. I had only tried the action until today. I went down to the range and ran a couple of mags thru it and wow. It made a huge difference to me in the trigger pull and reset. My accuracy was much better as I shot a very tight group. I am hesitant to change a lot on a gun but the addition of the hard sear from Apex did the trick for me. The gun is now a legitimate range gun.

 

[rsrocket1]

The grittiness feel on the take up is from the trigger bar striker block disengagement hump grinding against the striker block. Polishing the striker block (or just shooting it a whole lot) will smooth out the SB and get rid of the grittiness. You can also buy an Apex Ultimate Striker Block, but it is included in the FSS kit so if you are doing that, it's already included. Here is a picture of my original striker block with about 20k rounds through it next to the Apex USB. My gun had very little grit in the first place and zero grit within the first few months.
The actual contact point at the top edge of the dome points down in the slide toward the high point on the trigger bar. As the trigger bar moves back, it pushes against the edge of the dome to "unblock" the striker.

As for the spring, you can remove the sear block by drifting the rear roll pin, gently prying up a little at a time on the sear housing until it comes out of the frame, then push the sear pin out to remove the sear and look at the spring. The Apex video shows it all. The old spring is about 1/16" in diameter and is unsuitable for the FSS kit. If you have an older sear housing block, you could try shooting with it, but if you experience "dead triggers", you are probably getting "sear flutter" and need to get a new sear housing block. I got one from Brownell's. Ordered it on a Tuesday and it arrived that Friday.