Constitutional Carry

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usmc2427765

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I don't want to get anybody riled up or ready to fight. I am posting this as a retired LEO that cares about his brothers and sisters still working and answering calls for service.

The Texas Legislature has dumped a pile of manure on Texas Peace Officers that has the real potential for a disaster. Effective 09/01/2012 anybody can strap on a firearm without benefit of a background check. The problem is that they did not provide us with an ability to stop and check them for felony convictions that make it illegal for them to even possess a firearm. We would be labeled racists profilers and the complaints would flood the station and in this environment you are wrong until you prove yourself right.

Now put yourself in their position, would you risk your job and your ability to support your family along with the Feds crawling all over you with the possibility of a civil rights indictment? I know because I was there a while ago.

I only ask that law biding citizens understand what we are dealing with and support your local police.
 
The Texas Legislature has dumped a pile of manure on Texas Peace Officers that has the real potential for a disaster. Effective 09/01/2012 anybody can strap on a firearm without benefit of a background check. The problem is that they did not provide us with an ability to stop and check them for felony convictions that make it illegal for them to even possess a firearm. We would be labeled racists profilers and the complaints would flood the station and in this environment you are wrong until you prove yourself right.
.

So, how does the Texas law vary from other states constitutional carry laws that it is a "pile of manure"?
 
Should the IRS audit everyone first to sort out the dishonest?
Should every driver be stopped and given a sobriety test to find the drunk drivers?
Should everyone be stopped to prove citizenship or would you have everyone wear their passport around their neck.
What if every shopper were searched at every exit door to find the shoplifters?
How about mandatory DNA registration for every human in the US to find the sex criminals?
To do these would assume guilt before the crime and eliminate warrants. That seems like a police state. The liberal criminal justice system and judicial has created the problem, not the citizens. If the dangerous bad guys were locked up where they belong they wouldn’t be a threat to LE folks OR the good guys. The threat created by the walking dangerous is why the good guys need the ability to carry the gun. To protect and serve, not stop and search. Remember freedom is a slippery slope and besides that Marine, don’t forget that “uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States” oath! ….and as previously noted, does anyone really think the bad guys were not carrying guns because it was against the law?
One additional note. The Texas legislature did not give Texans anything; they returned a right they took away in 1871 !
 
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I don't want to get anybody riled up or ready to fight. I am posting this as a retired LEO that cares about his brothers and sisters still working and answering calls for service.

The Texas Legislature has dumped a pile of manure on Texas Peace Officers that has the real potential for a disaster. Effective 09/01/2012 anybody can strap on a firearm without benefit of a background check. The problem is that they did not provide us with an ability to stop and check them for felony convictions that make it illegal for them to even possess a firearm. We would be labeled racists profilers and the complaints would flood the station and in this environment you are wrong until you prove yourself right.

Now put yourself in their position, would you risk your job and your ability to support your family along with the Feds crawling all over you with the possibility of a civil rights indictment? I know because I was there a while ago.

I only ask that law biding citizens understand what we are dealing with and support your local police.

This is the trouble with law enforcement. the us vs them attitude. I even see it with in dept. special operations group vs line officer, etc. It twists my tail to hear one of my fellow officers refer to someone in the public a "civilian". A good many people do support their local police, maybe its time for the police to support the local people. We don't look at each and every leo as potential a racist want to be killer, maybe leos shouldn't look at each and every one of the public as a potential felon.
God Bless
 
There are times when I can understand why someone is concerned, but not agree with it...this is one of them. The facts are crystal clear: constitutional carry does not equal an increase in shootings. One need only look at crime statistics to see that the safest states and lowest instances of violent crime are in constitutional carry states. My daughter is a State Trooper here in VT, the original constitutional carry state. The fact that anyone can carry open or concealed is of no concern to her. No amount of training, permitting or background checks will overcome people problems or stop bad people from doing bad things. I am not prepared to concede any right due to localized problems that result from politically motivated decisions. I am sure that there are vast areas of Texas that are as safe as where I live, where armed citizens are of no concern...concentrate on fixing the areas that aren't, and don't punish the majority for the actions of a few.
 
This seems to be the right time and place to put this bit of drama. These are thoughts I've had for many years but not expressed to the public until now.

I have witnessed this slaughter of people from the time of my own youth. Two things that i blame it on: 1. A total lack of spiritual leadership coupled with a lack of respect for LE. 2. A total lack of consequences for actions which are not the norms of society.

It started with DR. Spock and don't spank little Johnny you might hurt his wee little mental development. It didn't stop my father and lo and behold I've managed to live 71 years and not a day, not even an hour behind bars. Not even so much as a second. Hummm must be something wrong with me. Back when my first wife was pregnant with our first child we were given a Dr. Spock book, I took one look at it and chucked it into the bin as fast as I could. I'd never seen such trash in all my life. She got another book after the second child was born and after we separated and she raised him accordingly. First child is now a CWO in the National Guard where he lives. Second child has never held a job longer than three months since he turned twenty-four and believes it's the governments job to take care of him. I swear sometimes I'm thinking he is someone else child.

Years ago a study was conducted among lifers in prisons all around the country. The question asked was, "Why are you here?" Not, what did you do, or what you were accused of doing, but why are you here. Their number one answer once it was boiled down to facts was there was a lack of consequences for their actions. It started at the family level and progressed to the legal system to institutional system. A slap on the wrist, regardless of the wrong, at all levels.

The most rapid change came about with "The Great Society" of President Johnson. Pay young girls to have babies and don't force the fathers to support their offspring has led to hundreds of thousands of children growing up not knowing their fathers, the fathers not being involved in the childrearing, and the government paying the mother to get pregnant again and again. A sixteen year old girl in Detroit was told by her Grandmother that she was now the bread winner in the family and it was her job (the girl) to go get pregnant to support her family, meaning grandmother, mother and siblings. This has to stop.

With that in mind, in my mind the thing we must do is make crime pay. Not pay for the criminal but for society. WE need to do away with the Criminal Justice system and create a Victims Justice system. These miscreants are not the victims of anything but a system that has failed we the people. I almost think we need to bring back public hangings, and hold them in the neighborhoods where the crime was committed.

Okay off my soap box. and time to move on.

Llance
 
I don't want to get anybody riled up or ready to fight. I am posting this as a retired LEO that cares about his brothers and sisters still working and answering calls for service.

The Texas Legislature has dumped a pile of manure on Texas Peace Officers that has the real potential for a disaster. Effective 09/01/2012 anybody can strap on a firearm without benefit of a background check. The problem is that they did not provide us with an ability to stop and check them for felony convictions that make it illegal for them to even possess a firearm. We would be labeled racists profilers and the complaints would flood the station and in this environment you are wrong until you prove yourself right.

Now put yourself in their position, would you risk your job and your ability to support your family along with the Feds crawling all over you with the possibility of a civil rights indictment? I know because I was there a while ago.

I only ask that law biding citizens understand what we are dealing with and support your local police.
As a retired LEO myself.

I'm glad Texas went the way it did. A person simply carrying a firearm shouldn't be enough RS to establish a Terry Stop. Last I checked, the Constitution in its enumeration of the 2A says the following.

". . .the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. "

I personally am against the idea of a felony being an automatic disqualification for gun ownership. EVERYTHING IS A FELONY now.

In FL alone, if you owned a simple handyman business doing minor home repairs and didn't have any employees but yourself. You could be charged with a felony for simply not having workers compensation insurance.

Your rights to own and bear arms can be stripped from you for simply running a business and not having insurance coverage for yourself because you're the owner and feel you don't want it.

Prior to the establishment of the authoritarian state that we have today.

The idea was simple. A person serves their time for their punishment and upon rejoining society, they have the vast majority of their rights back.

Today, we make everything into felonies and make people serve life sentences outside of prison for things that they did in the ignorance of youth and they're barred from liberty even after they've turned their life around and worse... we make so many things a felony when they should not be crimes in the first place.

Own a 30rd magazine for an AR-15? Well, NY views that as a worse crime than rape. Doing a home project on an old shotgun and you accidentally cut the barrel too short by a 1/4 of an inch. Well, the Federal Government is literally willing to kill you and your family over it.

As a society, we should enforce laws based on Malun In Se, not Malum Prohibitum.

But the basis of your issue is judging a book by its cover and not its contents. We already saw that fail in Texas with what happened with the motorcyclists.

In the end, this is about freedom. You can live in a free society with certain risk or live in a regulated society and still have those risks, but have no freedom either.
 
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Weren't the bad guys already carrying without any regard for the laws?

Yup.... bad guys break the law. Last I checked, murder has been illegal since Moses walked down from the mountain and bad guys still do it.

Criminals are criminals because they break the law. Gun Control laws only hurt the law abiding.
 
Kansas passed "open carry" a few years ago and a lot of folks thought the same thing. The not so friendly gun crowd predicted there would be mass chaos, no one would be safe and there would be gun fights in the streets!

It didn't happen!!!! Crime did not go up.

Some business put up the no gun in store sign effecting the CCW people. I don't blame them! who would want a wannabe- poser cowboy with a hog leg strapped to his/her hip wondering through Walmart? that's were you will see most of them.

The first year or so I seen a good number of people open carry, maybe 30-40 in a six month period. Then Kansas passed the no CCW license requirement. I see maybe five or so open carry in a years time now.
 
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The problem is that they did not provide us with an ability to stop and check them for felony convictions that make it illegal for them to even possess a firearm.

I guess I'll never understand why so many in LE are so terribly frightened of actual liberty.

Why would you want, or feel it appropriate, to stop anyone merely because they're carrying a firearm? If you can reasonably articulate some crime they just committed, are committing, or likely to commit, you have exactly what you need to find out if they have felony convictions, gun carry notwithstanding.

A felon will NOT be openly carrying a firearm, they're too worried they'd be recognized. Felons will carry concealed, in which case you wouldn't stop them anyway, outside doing a Terry stop for some other reason.

Thank you for staying with the LE game; I know many that have bailed out due to the current climate. But don't worry too much about the citizens openly carrying- they're aren't typically the problem.
 
I don't want to get anybody riled up or ready to fight. I am posting this as a retired LEO that cares about his brothers and sisters still working and answering calls for service.

The Texas Legislature has dumped a pile of manure on Texas Peace Officers that has the real potential for a disaster. Effective 09/01/2012 anybody can strap on a firearm without benefit of a background check. The problem is that they did not provide us with an ability to stop and check them for felony convictions that make it illegal for them to even possess a firearm. We would be labeled racists profilers and the complaints would flood the station and in this environment you are wrong until you prove yourself right.

Now put yourself in their position, would you risk your job and your ability to support your family along with the Feds crawling all over you with the possibility of a civil rights indictment? I know because I was there a while ago.

I only ask that law biding citizens understand what we are dealing with and support your local police.

I think you need to take a step back and look at it from the position of the citizens in your jurisdiction before asking them to support you on this. You're complaining that you don't have the power to stop someone you've seen break no law and check to see if they've done something in the past that makes their current activity illegal.

While there are people such as yourself that are uncomfortable with guns being carried, and will back you up on this, I think you're going to find a lot more people happy that police can't stop them for fishing expeditions. If you're concerned with lack of public support on something, instead of complaining that those you're supposed to be serving are wrong, maybe consider that people value their civil liberties more than you do and adjust your behavior accordingly.
 
I don't want to get anybody riled up or ready to fight. I am posting this as a retired LEO that cares about his brothers and sisters still working and answering calls for service.

The Texas Legislature has dumped a pile of manure on Texas Peace Officers that has the real potential for a disaster. Effective 09/01/2012 anybody can strap on a firearm without benefit of a background check. The problem is that they did not provide us with an ability to stop and check them for felony convictions that make it illegal for them to even possess a firearm. We would be labeled racists profilers and the complaints would flood the station and in this environment you are wrong until you prove yourself right.

Now put yourself in their position, would you risk your job and your ability to support your family along with the Feds crawling all over you with the possibility of a civil rights indictment? I know because I was there a while ago.

I only ask that law biding citizens understand what we are dealing with and support your local police.

If I understand the OP, the concern is that the police won't be able to detain people exercising a constitutional right absent individualized suspicion of criminal wrongdoing. Doesn't bother me a bit.

I see both sides of the issue.

I agree that people should never be stopped and questioned unless the officer has probable cause for a stop. I am also morally, ethically and professionally opposed to the officers I have observed over the years who will follow someone until they find probable cause.

Follow someone for 4-5 minutes and you’ll make them nervous enough that they’ll do something that creates probable cause. But that kind of policing is counterproductive and pits the police against the citizens they are supposed to serve and protect.

On the other hand I firmly support background checks for *ALL* firearm sales and in particular for handgun sales. One of the local gun shops in the area will do a NICS check for a private sale. Both parties come in and they do the check on the buyer. It also provides a safe place for the actual transaction to occur. The fee is a nominal $5.

The recent change in the 4473 has made it more burdensome as they have moved the old section “D” to section “A” requiring the firearm information to be completed before the buyer’s information and statements. That means they now have to log the gun in and then back out, increasing the workload just to do a background check.

But that’s a simple legislative fix and I’d fully support required background checks on all sales, provided it is done at nominal cost to the buyer and seller, rather than as a $25 to $50 transfer.

I’m also a a big fan of concealed carry permits. The data in several states (including Texas) is very clear. Law enforcement officers are much less likely to commit crimes than the general public. A study by Police Quarterly found the crime rate for all felonies and misdemeanors committed police officers was 102 per 100,000, compared to 3816 per 100,000 for the general public (2006 data).

However, concealed carry permit holders had rates of just 10.4 per 100,000 in Florida and 11.5 per 100,000 in TX (2018 data). Combining those two shows that concealed carry permit holders are 6 times less likely to commit crimes than *police officers*. An officer stopping someone with a concealed carry permit needs to understand that he or she is significantly *safer* than they would be stopping another officer.

Comparing concealed carry permit holders to the general public, they are a whopping 348 times less likely to commit a felony or misdemeanor than the general public.

——

In short, my issue with Constitutional Carry is you really are saying “everybody” can open carry. Now...that’s a slight exaggeration as prohibited individuals still cannot carry (legally).

But in a state where private sales with no background check are legal and where officers cannot question a person open carrying without probable cause, you cannot practically prevent prohibited individuals from carrying or enforce it in any way other than after a crime has been committed. That’s a recipe for a future disaster leading to future knee jerk control and really isn’t in our long term best interests.

On the plus side, my understanding is that the Texas HB1927 has struck the provision preventing officers from questioning people open carrying who they suspect might be prohibited individuals.

——

However, I’d much rather see a streamlined process for concealed carry permits where the individuals are still vetted via a background check.
 
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Ohio has never regulated open carry except for motor vehicles and certain locations. If there was a problem with it, it would have shown years ago. When I was on the job, the gun I didn't see was the one that concerned me more. The bad guys always carry guns and always have, always will. I assumed everyone was armed and took that possibility into account, along with a lot of other potential perils. I have always felt that the mental complacency that comes from not assuming all are armed is far more dangerous to police officers than people openly carrying ever will be.
 
I see both sides of the issue.

I agree that people should never be stopped and questioned unless the officer has probable cause for a stop. I am also morally, ethically and professionally opposed to the officers I have observed over the years who will follow someone until they find probable cause.

Follow someone for 4-5 minutes and you’ll make them nervous enough that they’ll do something that creates probable cause. But that kind of policing is counterproductive and pits the police against the citizens they are supposed to serve and protect.

On the other hand I firmly support background checks for *ALL* firearm sales and in particular for handgun sales. One of the local gun shops in the area will do a NICS check for a private sale. Both parties come in and they do the check on the buyer. It also provides a safe place for the actual transaction to occur. The fee is a nominal $5.

The recent change in the 4473 has made it more burdensome as they have moved the old section “D” to section “A” requiring the firearm information to be completed before the buyer’s information and statements. That means they now have to log the gun in and then back out, increasing the workload just to do a background check.

But that’s a simple legislative fix and I’d fully support required background checks on all sales, provided it is done at nominal cost to the buyer and seller, rather than as a $25 to $50 transfer.

I’m also a a big fan of concealed carry permits. The data in several states (including Texas) is very clear. Law enforcement officers are much less likely to commit crimes than the general public. A study by Police Quarterly found the crime rate for all felonies and misdemeanors committed police officers was 102 per 100,000, compared to 3816 per 100,000 for the general public (2006 data).

However, concealed carry permit holders had rates of just 10.4 per 100,000 in Florida and 11.5 per 100,000 in TX (2018 data). Combining those two shows that concealed carry permit holders are 6 times less likely to commit crimes than *police officers*. An officer stopping someone with a concealed carry permit needs to understand that he or she is significantly *safer* than they would be stopping another officer.

Comparing concealed carry permit holders to the general public, they are a whopping 348 times less likely to commit a felony or misdemeanor than the general public.

——

In short, my issue with Constitutional Carry is you really are saying “everybody” can open carry. Now...that’s a slight exaggeration as prohibited individuals still cannot carry (legally).

But in a state where private sales with no background check are legal and where officers cannot question a person open carrying without probable cause, you cannot practically prevent prohibited individuals from carrying or enforce it in any way other than after a crime has been committed. That’s a recipe for a future disaster leading to future knee jerk control and really isn’t in our long term best interests.

On the plus side, my understanding is that the Texas HB1927 has struck the provision preventing officers from questioning people open carrying who they suspect might be prohibited individuals.

——

However, I’d much rather see a streamlined process for concealed carry permits where the individuals are still vetted via a background check.

I think you're establishing causation with people getting the concealed carry permit leading to being less likely to commit crimes, with the much more likely scenario being that people willing to go through the hassle of getting a permit are less likely to commit crimes whether they needed to get a permit or not.

I also live in a state with background checks for (most) private sales, and lived in one that required them for all sales of handguns, then eventually rifles. I will start this by saying I do believe universal background checks are likely to be some of the most effective gun control, but that's a low bar and I think we're too heavily armed as a country for that to impact gun crime in a noticeable way in my lifetime. The minor crime impact is outweighed by the intended purpose, making it way more difficult for lower income people to legally get a gun. I'm lucky enough that I can take a couple hours to meet at a FFL and drop the $40 or so most shops are charging for a transfer, but when I was working hourly at a restaurant it was a huge hassle, and even moreso to get two whole days off for CT's pistol permit classes, to say nothing of the other fees associated with permits.
 
I think you're establishing causation with people getting the concealed carry permit leading to being less likely to commit crimes, with the much more likely scenario being that people willing to go through the hassle of getting a permit are less likely to commit crimes whether they needed to get a permit or not.

I also live in a state with background checks for (most) private sales, and lived in one that required them for all sales of handguns, then eventually rifles. I will start this by saying I do believe universal background checks are likely to be some of the most effective gun control, but that's a low bar and I think we're too heavily armed as a country for that to impact gun crime in a noticeable way in my lifetime. The minor crime impact is outweighed by the intended purpose, making it way more difficult for lower income people to legally get a gun. I'm lucky enough that I can take a couple hours to meet at a FFL and drop the $40 or so most shops are charging for a transfer, but when I was working hourly at a restaurant it was a huge hassle, and even moreso to get two whole days off for CT's pistol permit classes, to say nothing of the other fees associated with permits.

You’re preaching to the choir. Here in NC the concealed carry process has deep roots in Jim Crow laws. The fees are expensive and the training requirement requires people to pay anywhere from $80 to $150 for a class, plus a box of ammo. That ends up being $250-$300 for a concealed carry permit on average. Then you have to schedule a time to get fingerprinted and once that’s done you still end up waiting a couple months for the permit.

When I renew mine every 5 years I have to schedule an “interview” with the county Sheriffs office. That requires me to schedule weeks in advance, go down town, find parking, go through security, and then pick up my permit. I have *never* had an actual interview. I tell them I’m here for my “interview”, they have me wait in the waiting room and a few minutes later they hand me a permit. Now if I were black...?

In contrast I came from SD where a concealed carry permit cost $5 and was mailed to you in 3-5 days. A few years ago the fee increased to $10 and they added a couple levels of enhanced permits with better reciprocity with other states that cost up to $100. But the basic good everywhere in SD concealed carry permit is still just $10.

If we disagree it’s on the assumption that it’s just people who bother to jump through the hoops to get a permit that have lower crime rates. I agree to a point that yes, once someone goes through the effort to get a permit, they do not want to lose it and might moderate their behavior a bit. But I think that effect is minor.

A bigger impact on crime rates comes from people with permits wanting to preserve their right to use a handgun in self defense. For example, in most states if you are the aggressor in an altercation you lose the right to self defense. That results in different outcomes in some circumstances. For example if you get cut off in traffic by someone and you then flip them off, causing the person to stop in front of you at the next light and come back to your car, your right to use a gun in self defense is questionable to non existent in some states as you contributed to the escalation of events. In some states you regain the right to self defense if you retreat or attempt to retreat while in others you do not.

Also about 80% of all crimes have historically been drug or alcohol, related. In most states you cannot use lethal force in self defense if you have any significant amount of alcohol in your system. I am not aware of any state that allows an intoxicated concealed carry permit for holder to use deadly force. This of you want to carry and preserve your right to self defense you don’t drink, or you drink less.

Looking back at SD, it has one of the highest rates of concealed carry in the US thanks to the easy to get permit and general gun culture. It also has one of the highest rates of binge drinking and alcoholism. The last time I crunched the permit versus population numbers I found that 1 in every 7 adults over age 21 had a permit. Yet despite easy to get permits and high rates of drinking, crime rates are still low and lower still for permit holders.

There has been some increases in rates over the years for the general public but that is an artifact of the Sioux Falls metro area growing way more than it should. (30 years ago we advised the county and the city that getting larger than the then current 100,000 population would add nothing to quality of life but rather would just increase big city problems and crime. They didn’t listen as developer money talks.)
 
But in a state where private sales with no background check are legal and where officers cannot question a person open carrying without probable cause, you cannot practically prevent prohibited individuals from carrying or enforce it in any way other than after a crime has been committed.

Let me fix that . . .

In a nation with up to 420,000,000 guns, you cannot practically prevent prohibited individuals from carrying or enforce it in any way other than after a crime has been committed.
 
I'll sure feel safer in Texas knowing 'that guy' who hangs around the gun store looking to talk about the newest, most deadly firearm/ammo for 'self defense' can now carry concealed at his discretion as he looks for a chance to feel threatened enough to use it.

Most of those shot dead I saw were suicide, accidents, and domestic violence murders or murder/suicide. I still don't believe most folks have the requisite judgement to carry 24/7/365.
 
I'll sure feel safer in Texas knowing 'that guy' who hangs around the gun store looking to talk about the newest, most deadly firearm/ammo for 'self defense' can now carry concealed at his discretion as he looks for a chance to feel threatened enough to use it.

Most of those shot dead I saw were suicide, accidents, and domestic violence murders or murder/suicide. I still don't believe most folks have the requisite judgement to carry 24/7/365.

The guy at the gun store could get a permit previously, or carry illegally. The lack of these freedoms didn't stop the murders or suicides you described. In fact, suicide and DV murders are most likely to occur in the home, where the carry argument has no place anyways.

I'm glad the state of Texas disagrees with you and the OP in favor of recognizing individual liberties.
 
I'll sure feel safer in Texas knowing 'that guy' who hangs around the gun store looking to talk about the newest, most deadly firearm/ammo for 'self defense' can now carry concealed at his discretion as he looks for a chance to feel threatened enough to use it.
The ironic things is that using your definition of "that guy" I would estimate I know/knew three people that fit it- all three are/were cops.

I've never known any citizen gun owner or carrier that was like that, actually quite the opposite.

I still don't believe most folks have the requisite judgement to carry 24/7/365.
How many of those folks are in LE?
 
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How many of those folks are in LE?

The vast majority of LEO’s don’t carry regularly off-duty unless their agency requires it. I’ve never seen a peer reviewed study, but my unscientific opinion is that the percentages are the same between LEO’s and the general population, with LEO maybe lower . . .
 
We don't look at each and every leo as potential a racist want to be killer, maybe leos shouldn't look at each and every one of the public as a potential felon.
God Bless

Well said...
 
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