Converting 41 Mag brass to 9.4 x 21mm Dutch

[deadin]

I want to start a project to see if I can fabricate some brass for this.
41 Mag has close to the correct head size, so it's a starting point. Unfortunately I can't find any other than in 100 round batches.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I've got 41 mag brass for sale. I let you have as few as you want at 20 cents each you pay postage. I have 303 British too, same deal PM me if your interested.

I love to make cartridges you can't buy! Ivan

 

[rwsmith]

Just what......

Just what is that???

 

[Doug M.]

Something I will watch someone else shoot from a safe distance.

 

[deadin]

Just what is that???

It's a Dutch Model 1873 New Model in 9.4 x 21mm Dutch.
The amazing part is that they apparently used it up through WW2.

 

[deadin]

About three weeks ago I posted a plea for some 41 Mag brass to use to see if I could make some rounds for this old M1873 Dutch 9.4 x 21mm revolver.
Ivan the Butcher kindly sent me a dozen pieces (free!! ) on the condition I keep you all posted on the conversion. Here are the results:
From left to right:
[FONT=&quot] 41 Mag Brass original: (2) Brass trimmed to length: (3) brass run through first step forming die (formed to fit chamber): (4) second step forming die (resizing to reduce neck to correct diameter for reloading): (5) Original .401 dia. 155gr. Cast bullet. (6) First pass through swaging die to reduce to .392. (7) Second pass to reduce to correct .380 diameter. (8) End product to be loaded with BP.




[/FONT]

 

[DR505]

How did it shoot? And what data did you use?

 

[deadin]

I haven't had a chance to get to the range yet. The load will be a case full of Black Powder, slightly compressed, which is standard for most BP firearms.

 

[Nemo288]

Very cool!
I love case forming projects like this and wish I had the means to make dies like that.

Did you have to inside neck ream or are the cases thin enough to fit right in the chambers?

How do you use those dies that are not threaded?

I have had to neck ream cut off rifle brass.
Even 44 mag cut down to Russian should be reamed.

Thanks for the thread

Edit: In the day late, dollar short, dept:
Looking in the (somewhat useless) Handloader's Manual Of Cartridge Conversions <Donnelly>,
they tell you to use 303 Savage brass. Cut down to .81", turn the rim .490, neck ream and size.
They also mention using a 250 gr lead bullet with 1.2 gr. of Bullseye for 600 fps.

I think your way is far more efficient.

===
Nemo

 

[deadin]

I think Donnelly may have been written before 41 Mag. existed.
(And when you could still find .303 Savage.....)
250 gr. bullet? That seems quite heavy for the size of the case, but who knows.
I've never actually seen an original round but there
appears to be enough room in the cylinder for one.
There seem to be any number of 250 - 255 gr cast bullets available for the 38/55.
I may give them a try if the 155's don't work out.
They are a smidgen undersized (.377-.379) but should work.

The unthreaded dies are used on an 1 1/2 ton arbor press. Just shove them in, turn the die over and use the rod shown to push them back out.
(The swaging dies just have the bullet pushed all the way through with a fitted rod. They have an entry taper to keep the bullet from shaving.)

It looks like I am going to have to thread some 7/8th rod to make something that will fit in my regular press in order to seat and crimp the bullet. I haven't figured a way to do this on a push die and then get the loaded round back out of the die....

BTW, What Russian are you making with cut down 44 Mag cases?

 

[2152hq]

The 303 Savage brass is talked about as the basis for making the 9.4Dutch round in an article in the Gun Collectors Digest (2nd Edition??)
The article was focused on the KNIL Dutch 9.4mm revolver (Dutch East Indies). Maybe that's where Donnelly/Cartridge Conversions got the hint to make the caliber from the 303Sav case.

At the time (early 70's) there were a number of them imported into the US and sold for around $20/$25.
I bought one in '72 out of a Shotgun News ad for $20 I believe from Century Arms,,
Siamese Mausers were in the same ad for the same price and a couple of those came my way too. Big spender.
The KNIL is still around here somewhere in a cigar box in parts most likely.
The Mausers went to a friend and FFL who made them into 45-70's. The big thing to do at the time.

I never loaded for the revolver. 303Savage was nearly as tough to find in '71 as it is now I think!
41Mag looks easier to handle than any rifle brass anyway incl 7.62AK.

Seems like there was a limited amt of original 9.4 ammo around then too. Most likely Indonesian mfg or re-mfg. Small paper packets of 5 or 6 rds.
Of course I didn't buy any of that,,

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Hey Deadin; If you are using BP (short for "The Holy Black Powder) you will need more lube that your sized down lube groove can hold. The normal place to put it is below the bullet, either in a hollow base or in a thin "cookie" 1/16 to 1/8 thick (most original rounds used a hollow base). In either case you will need an over the powder card, these can be made from cork, felt, milk carton (my favorite), or even plastic milk jug. Use a 41 mag brass, and "de-burr" the in and outside of the case to sharpen it and use that as a cutting punch. This card keeps the powder from getting messed up by the lube, and on fresh cartridges won't be necessary. Stored rounds, it is a must! Ivan

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I thought you could make 303 Savage out of 30-30 Win. Ivan

 

[deadin]

Ivan,
I looked at 30/30 as a possibility, but the 41 Mag is so much easier to work with. I was planning on using a over the powder wad and/or Lee Liquid Alox. Someplace in my junk I have a bag of .50 cal. "Ox-Yoke Wonder Wads" that could be trimmed down to .380 also.

2152hq,
From what little research I did it seems that the KNIL shot a completely different round than the M1873 I have. I haven't been able to find any specs on either one.

BTW, If you could find the box with the KNIL, I would be interested..........

Dean

 

[deadin]

The Mausers went to a friend and FFL who made them into 45-70's.

I do remember the Siamese Mausers. A friend of mine was flying a research aircraft up around Churchill, Manitoba (think Polar Bears) at the time. He wanted something "handy" in case they had to put down in the bush. Normally the natives just use a 12 ga. with slugs, but he wanted something more. (Something about the bears were protected unless they got within 20 feet of you.) I put him with a gunsmith I knew and he ended up with a .458 Win. built on a Siamese action. (Complete with a 16" barrel. )
If the slug didn't get them, the fireball would.

 

[Alk8944]

Deadin,

Pretty much what I ended up doing for my KNIL. You may not be aware, but C-H 4D has 9.4 Dutch/10mm Beaumont dies available.

I improvised instead of buying/making dies. As I recall I trimmed .41 Mag. to length, tapered them in either a 7.62x39, .35 Remington, or .30-30 sizer die. The neck was sized in a .41 Long Colt die, and I used the Lyman 386178 Hollow base bullet for the .41 Long Colt. Seating was in the .41 L.C. seater die.

Haven't chronographed anything from it because of a problem with the soft frame. Modern primers develop enough pressure on their own to collapse the thin, soft, frame above the firing pin. The primer backs up into this and ties up the gun. I am still working on installing a tool steel firing pin bushing to fix this problem, maybe I will be able to shoot it them. Those Dutch black powder primers must have been really hard and stiff, or they developed very little pressure!

FWIW, I have seen an article written about loading the 9.4 Dutch with the C-H dies, and my finished cases look just like the ammunition loaded in the C-H dies, a severe bottle-neck!

 

[deadin]

I wasn't aware of the C-H dies, but at $100.00 a set I had much more fun improvising.

I see that they offer a different set for the East Indies round. I guess this confirms my assumption that the M1873 and the KNIL are different.

My M1873 shows no sign of primer set-back and I probably won't shoot it enough to have any problems. (Unless it turns out to be a tack driver. (Which I very much doubt...))

 

[Nemo288]

The East Indies version is .2" longer running right around 1" long.
Otherwise the same dimensions.
Guess they figured the natives were that much harder to kill than Europeans.
The recommended substitute Bullseye load goes up to 1.3 grains.
I suspect this leaves the exact same pressure due to the increased volume.

The 44 S&W Russian is the round I make by cutting down the magnums.
It is one of the only 44 centerfires I don't have a gun for.
I made up a few rounds to fool around with and for the comparative brass collection

As an aside, it is possible the 30USA brass in the pic could be 100 years old (or older).
You can see the ejector cut on the rim. If this was fired in service it was awhile back.
That was our first smokeless service rifle round. I have not had any problems with it
but only have fired it a couple of times at roughly 45KPSI (about what it was rated for).
No sign of mercuric poisoning.

===
Nemo

 

[deadin]

BTW, What Russian are you making with cut down 44 Mag cases?

Well, Duh!
I was thinking Russian Russian. S&W Russian didn't even cross my mind.

 

[Mic-Redwolf]

I have a N J Dessard revolver in 9.4 Dutch. I find that cut down .41 LC cases fit ALMOST perfectly. They are a little snug but with a correct sizing die its a simple fix. Chamber size is .440 rim .4095 head and .395 at the barrel The bore at the muzzle measures approx. .375. It was difficult to measure so I will slug the bore then measure. This is my first post so here goes my attempt to post a photo http://www.gunsamerica.com/UserImages/50604/979286394/wm_6769823.jpg OK That didn't work out as planned. I had it for sale on GA but removed it. Its back in my safe.