copper handgun bullets?
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Reloader Fred
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Barnes Bullets makes them, but they are very expensive. I've got some, but just can't bring myself to load and shoot them at nearly a dollar per bullet, or just a little less.
Hope this helps.
Fred
Hope this helps.
Fred
lafayne
Member
I can't come up with a reason to want to use them.
i will admit with all the good jacketed and cast bullets on the market there is not a need for copper bullets. but barnes has built a good reputation in their products and if similar bullets can be had a reasonable cost i would try them.
I have found the Powerbelt bullets very good for modern muzzleloaders with fast barrel twist, but at $1 each, I don't use them for plinking.
Since I don't hunt anything more dangerous than a coyote with a handgun, I never felt the need for Barnes bullets in it, but have no doubt they are effective. I doubt the home caster could match them.
Since I don't hunt anything more dangerous than a coyote with a handgun, I never felt the need for Barnes bullets in it, but have no doubt they are effective. I doubt the home caster could match them.
Andy Griffith
Member
I've got a couple of boxes of them I traded up.
I could never bring myself to load them though...too expensive.
However, I do have about a half a box of the Barnes solids they no longer make for the .44 Mag/.444 Marlin. They look almost like the "punch bullets" made for the .454 Casull. I think they are a bronz-ish alloy..but they aren't hollow point.
They quit making them...wonder why?
I could never bring myself to load them though...too expensive.
However, I do have about a half a box of the Barnes solids they no longer make for the .44 Mag/.444 Marlin. They look almost like the "punch bullets" made for the .454 Casull. I think they are a bronz-ish alloy..but they aren't hollow point.
They quit making them...wonder why?
I've never used anything from Barnes, but...
Last night I just happened to watch one of their complimentary DVDs I picked up at the local toy store and am thinking I might have to look for some of their handgun and rifle bullets. Just to have around. Of course it's going on my ever growing, never shortening, list of things to do/buy.
Last night I just happened to watch one of their complimentary DVDs I picked up at the local toy store and am thinking I might have to look for some of their handgun and rifle bullets. Just to have around. Of course it's going on my ever growing, never shortening, list of things to do/buy.
In the California condor range in So. Cal., lead bullets are outlawed except for .22 for rabbit hunting only. I loaded Barnes copper bullets in .44 Rem. Mag. and .357 Mag. in anticipation of hunting with them.
I used Barnes loading data and ultimately chronographed .44 Mag. 225gr XPB HP, w/20gr of Enforcer at an average of 1423fps. from a 6" 629 Classic PP.
They are far too expensive to use frivolously but I was compelled to be prepared. I also loaded for the .38, 30-30 and 30.06.
I used Barnes loading data and ultimately chronographed .44 Mag. 225gr XPB HP, w/20gr of Enforcer at an average of 1423fps. from a 6" 629 Classic PP.
They are far too expensive to use frivolously but I was compelled to be prepared. I also loaded for the .38, 30-30 and 30.06.
David Sinko
Member
I believe the XPB is better than even the Speer Gold Dot and other bonded core bullets. I bought a box at the Bargain Cave at Cabela's for almost half price (I guess somebody had opened it and didn't like what he saw). They were 225 gr. sized .451" and intended for the .45 Colt, the conventional wisdom being that they are long for caliber and not suitable for .45 ACP. Well, conventional wisdom is often wrong, especially when you load the .45 ACP long and shoot it out of a revolver. They achieve .45 Super velocities in my 625s and the appeal is that very large hollow cavity with the very sharp edge. I think of it as a modern Flying Ashtray that can't come apart, with more weight for good measure. Even if it doesn't expand I believe it's still better than just about everything else out there. I have since bought another box at full price and these will all be reserved for shooting meat.
Dave Sinko
Dave Sinko
Kyler Hamann
Member
Adventures with copper pistol bullets
Since I run a guided hunting service in the (theoretical) condor area, we've been forced to use nonlead bullets for about the last 18 months. (I have three degrees in biology... don't get me started on how STUPID this no lead law is or what I REALLY think its designed to do.)
Many clients have a hard time finding copper bullet ammo so to try to keep my business alive I'm working very hard to have a variety of calibers for rifles and pistols loaded and ready to go.
Other than the price, I've been pretty impressed with the Barnes rifle bullets. The average well hit animal seems to run quite a bit further than the last 1,500 or so I've seen killed with lead core bullets over the last 20+ years. But the accuracy is good, they penetrate very well and almost always retain all their weight.
My experience with the pistol bullets has not been as favorable. While guiding I've carried some version of a S&W .44 Mag. about 99% of the time for my whole career. Mostly 3" or 4" 629's but currently I'm carrying a 4" 329.
When the Barnes .44 bullets first came out years ago I tried a box and that was enough. The accuracy wasn't great and worse yet they didn't penetrate and they're so long I couldn't get in a full charge of my favorite .44 powers of 296 or 110.
Now I don't have much choice so I'm back to using them again with the same disappointing results. For example, on my first deer hunt this year the client's buck wasn't quite dead so he asked me to finish it with my pistol. Since it was down and almost out I walked to just a few feet away and shot it through the top of heart (he wanted to mount the head so we didn't want to damage the head or neck skin). The buck jumped up and ran away! We recovered him and the bullet hadn't even exited!!! A full house .44 Mag. at a few paces through a small deer rib cage... AGAIN I'm not impressed.
Currently I'm working up loads to have on hand for clients in 8 or 10 different handgun calibers. Its been BRUTAL finding loading data (the current Barnes book doesn't even list loads with the most common pistol powers that have been historically used). With all these handguns the accuracy hasn't been great compared to my typical lead core or lead bullet loads.
Since the bullets don't compress much if at all, I'm trying to be extremely careful to follow the very sparce loading data available. Some stuck-in-the-barrel loads later.... I can generally say the loads seem extremely light. I've only been able to get one semi-auto load to cycle so far and it cycled very weakly. Now I'm up near the top of the load data available in almost every pistol round I'm loading for. I loaded 4 more semi-auto calibers today. We'll see if any of them cycle.
For the .44 I'm heading a different direction now. I recently got a batch of the MagTech 200gr. all copper bullets. They're approved on the DFG "Condor safe" list and while they're still expensive, they're considerably cheaper than the Barnes. I believe they make a similar bullet for the .357.
Specifically why I sought them out is because the hollow point is smaller in diameter and not nearly as deep as either weight of the Barnes so I'm hoping they'll penetrate better. Also with a smaller cavity they are much shorter so I was able to get in a (recommended) charge of 110. While I haven't gotten a chance to use them on an animal yet, the accuracy seems at least as good at the Barnes (maybe better). I've just ordered more and will most likely avoid the Barnes in favor of the MagTech at least in the .44.
If anyone is struggling with working up nonlead loads feel free to contact me and I'll be glad to help if I can.
Great hunting with great hunters,
Kyler
Since I run a guided hunting service in the (theoretical) condor area, we've been forced to use nonlead bullets for about the last 18 months. (I have three degrees in biology... don't get me started on how STUPID this no lead law is or what I REALLY think its designed to do.)
Many clients have a hard time finding copper bullet ammo so to try to keep my business alive I'm working very hard to have a variety of calibers for rifles and pistols loaded and ready to go.
Other than the price, I've been pretty impressed with the Barnes rifle bullets. The average well hit animal seems to run quite a bit further than the last 1,500 or so I've seen killed with lead core bullets over the last 20+ years. But the accuracy is good, they penetrate very well and almost always retain all their weight.
My experience with the pistol bullets has not been as favorable. While guiding I've carried some version of a S&W .44 Mag. about 99% of the time for my whole career. Mostly 3" or 4" 629's but currently I'm carrying a 4" 329.
When the Barnes .44 bullets first came out years ago I tried a box and that was enough. The accuracy wasn't great and worse yet they didn't penetrate and they're so long I couldn't get in a full charge of my favorite .44 powers of 296 or 110.
Now I don't have much choice so I'm back to using them again with the same disappointing results. For example, on my first deer hunt this year the client's buck wasn't quite dead so he asked me to finish it with my pistol. Since it was down and almost out I walked to just a few feet away and shot it through the top of heart (he wanted to mount the head so we didn't want to damage the head or neck skin). The buck jumped up and ran away! We recovered him and the bullet hadn't even exited!!! A full house .44 Mag. at a few paces through a small deer rib cage... AGAIN I'm not impressed.
Currently I'm working up loads to have on hand for clients in 8 or 10 different handgun calibers. Its been BRUTAL finding loading data (the current Barnes book doesn't even list loads with the most common pistol powers that have been historically used). With all these handguns the accuracy hasn't been great compared to my typical lead core or lead bullet loads.
Since the bullets don't compress much if at all, I'm trying to be extremely careful to follow the very sparce loading data available. Some stuck-in-the-barrel loads later.... I can generally say the loads seem extremely light. I've only been able to get one semi-auto load to cycle so far and it cycled very weakly. Now I'm up near the top of the load data available in almost every pistol round I'm loading for. I loaded 4 more semi-auto calibers today. We'll see if any of them cycle.
For the .44 I'm heading a different direction now. I recently got a batch of the MagTech 200gr. all copper bullets. They're approved on the DFG "Condor safe" list and while they're still expensive, they're considerably cheaper than the Barnes. I believe they make a similar bullet for the .357.
Specifically why I sought them out is because the hollow point is smaller in diameter and not nearly as deep as either weight of the Barnes so I'm hoping they'll penetrate better. Also with a smaller cavity they are much shorter so I was able to get in a (recommended) charge of 110. While I haven't gotten a chance to use them on an animal yet, the accuracy seems at least as good at the Barnes (maybe better). I've just ordered more and will most likely avoid the Barnes in favor of the MagTech at least in the .44.
If anyone is struggling with working up nonlead loads feel free to contact me and I'll be glad to help if I can.
Great hunting with great hunters,
Kyler
David Sinko
Member
Winchester 296 is not intended to be used in watered down loads. These all copper bullets are very long for caliber (just like the rifle bullets) and take up too much space in the case to be used with conventional pistol loading data. If you are sticking bullets in the bore, you are experiencing very erratic ignition and likely low velocity. I doubt that the load you used could be considered a "full house" .44 Magnum. What bullet weight are you using? Some of the lighter .44 Magnum bullets are not at all suited to 296, and you'd be making it even worse with the reduced case capacity caused by the longer bullet.
I shot the 225 gr. XPB at 1080 FPS out of my 625 Mountain Gun with easy extraction and no signs of high pressure. I expect this bullet at this velocity would shoot through any deer out there. These bullets are seated pretty far out of the case to increase powder capacity and prevent their chambering in any semiauto. They are then taper crimped. They have shown no tendency to jump the crimp at this velocity.
I suggest that you switch to a different (faster) powder and give these bullets a second chance. I have very little experience with the .44 Magnum and frankly have no use for it but I'm sure that somebody out there has a good load that will give the proper velocity that you are seeking.
By the way, what is the bullet weight and charge weight of 296 that did NOT work well?
Dave Sinko
I shot the 225 gr. XPB at 1080 FPS out of my 625 Mountain Gun with easy extraction and no signs of high pressure. I expect this bullet at this velocity would shoot through any deer out there. These bullets are seated pretty far out of the case to increase powder capacity and prevent their chambering in any semiauto. They are then taper crimped. They have shown no tendency to jump the crimp at this velocity.
I suggest that you switch to a different (faster) powder and give these bullets a second chance. I have very little experience with the .44 Magnum and frankly have no use for it but I'm sure that somebody out there has a good load that will give the proper velocity that you are seeking.
By the way, what is the bullet weight and charge weight of 296 that did NOT work well?
Dave Sinko
44forever
Member
I haven't handloded any but
I have experimented with some of the Tarus .45 ACP loads marketed earlier. They appear to be full power, cycle the action in every auto I've tried and recovered bullets show full expansion (in water). This leads me to believe there are good loads possible though what they are using is anybody's guess.
I have experimented with some of the Tarus .45 ACP loads marketed earlier. They appear to be full power, cycle the action in every auto I've tried and recovered bullets show full expansion (in water). This leads me to believe there are good loads possible though what they are using is anybody's guess.
Kyler Hamann
Member
Dave,
I understand that like all powders, 296/110 are not to be used under recommended charges. In the OLD Barnes manuel, when they first introduced the X pistol bullets they offered recommended charges for those powders. It was difficult to get the minimum amount in the case but that is what I used to use. After poor penetration finishing off several pigs I quit using them back then. I guess I could add another cannelure (you'd think at $1 a bullet you wouldn't have to do much work to make them loadable) but I'd rather not have to crimp out of the cannelure as very often I'll end up carrying the same rounds for many days/shots in the field.
While not having my loading data or the new manual in front of me, I do know they don't show a load using 296/110 in the current manual. I'd hate to guess at what load I used without reading my data but it wasn't what you would call a "reduced" charge.
The bullets offered by Barnes in the .44 are 200 and 225gr. I've been using mostly the 225gr, HOPING for the best possible penetration. The MagTech is only offered in 200gr (but with a smaller hollow cavity allowing for a shorter bullet).
More recently I've been using the recommended charge of Blue Dot from the newest Barnes manual. Again without access to my data, I don't recall that charge weight either but it was within the upper end of the recommended range.
The stuck bullets were from a .38 load where Barnes didn't offer data. I contacted Ty at Barnes and he recommended I extrapolate and GUESS at the charges from similar cartridges and loads (he seems like a nice guy but HOLY COW that's frustrating for them to sell bullets without loading data).
While I've read several reports that people have gotten good penetration with the Barnes pistol bullets, my experiences have been poor to say the least.
A person can guess that something will penetrate all they want, but I'm in the field regularly and have skinned too many animals where the Barnes pistol bullets haven't penetrated.
It would be interesting to see if the heavier Barnes bullets for the .500 would allow better penetration (I would think its a no-brainer) but my .500 is too much too heavy and bulky for the potential hours of crawling through the brush tracking down the occational wounded boar (thus the 329 works perfectly).
Over the years one of the only other bullets I quit using because of poor penetration was the Hornady XTP. At least on pigs they just opened too fast to get good penetration. I got great penetration out of the Nosler Partitions and my cheap stand-by was the Remington 240gr. soft point (not HP). Even the lowly Remington SP would typically penetrate several feet (and most likely exit). That's a good thing when you have a wounded boar coming at you in the thick brush!
Since we're forced to change our lives to theoretically save the condors here... I think the MagTech will be the best choice at this time. But I'm itching to try them on a few animals to make sure.
My true frustration is probably better leveled at Fish & Game rather than Barnes. I don't know anyone who has ever seen a condor in this area so why it was made against the law to even POSSESS lead core bullets in a "hunting area" is just rediculous.
Have a great holiday,
Kyler
I understand that like all powders, 296/110 are not to be used under recommended charges. In the OLD Barnes manuel, when they first introduced the X pistol bullets they offered recommended charges for those powders. It was difficult to get the minimum amount in the case but that is what I used to use. After poor penetration finishing off several pigs I quit using them back then. I guess I could add another cannelure (you'd think at $1 a bullet you wouldn't have to do much work to make them loadable) but I'd rather not have to crimp out of the cannelure as very often I'll end up carrying the same rounds for many days/shots in the field.
While not having my loading data or the new manual in front of me, I do know they don't show a load using 296/110 in the current manual. I'd hate to guess at what load I used without reading my data but it wasn't what you would call a "reduced" charge.
The bullets offered by Barnes in the .44 are 200 and 225gr. I've been using mostly the 225gr, HOPING for the best possible penetration. The MagTech is only offered in 200gr (but with a smaller hollow cavity allowing for a shorter bullet).
More recently I've been using the recommended charge of Blue Dot from the newest Barnes manual. Again without access to my data, I don't recall that charge weight either but it was within the upper end of the recommended range.
The stuck bullets were from a .38 load where Barnes didn't offer data. I contacted Ty at Barnes and he recommended I extrapolate and GUESS at the charges from similar cartridges and loads (he seems like a nice guy but HOLY COW that's frustrating for them to sell bullets without loading data).
While I've read several reports that people have gotten good penetration with the Barnes pistol bullets, my experiences have been poor to say the least.
A person can guess that something will penetrate all they want, but I'm in the field regularly and have skinned too many animals where the Barnes pistol bullets haven't penetrated.
It would be interesting to see if the heavier Barnes bullets for the .500 would allow better penetration (I would think its a no-brainer) but my .500 is too much too heavy and bulky for the potential hours of crawling through the brush tracking down the occational wounded boar (thus the 329 works perfectly).
Over the years one of the only other bullets I quit using because of poor penetration was the Hornady XTP. At least on pigs they just opened too fast to get good penetration. I got great penetration out of the Nosler Partitions and my cheap stand-by was the Remington 240gr. soft point (not HP). Even the lowly Remington SP would typically penetrate several feet (and most likely exit). That's a good thing when you have a wounded boar coming at you in the thick brush!
Since we're forced to change our lives to theoretically save the condors here... I think the MagTech will be the best choice at this time. But I'm itching to try them on a few animals to make sure.
My true frustration is probably better leveled at Fish & Game rather than Barnes. I don't know anyone who has ever seen a condor in this area so why it was made against the law to even POSSESS lead core bullets in a "hunting area" is just rediculous.
Have a great holiday,
Kyler
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
Kyler,
Sorry you live in the people's republic of Kalifornya! (I was born in San Diego and grew up in the San Fernando Valley.)
I know that I have shot one hog with my H&G #503 Elmer Keith bullet from a Marlin 1894 in 44Mag and had complete penetration, broad side, at 40 yards, while the animal was on the run.
I also load the bullets that you mention, the Remington 240gr JSP. I also load the same in JSPHP. On our large northern Whitetails they will penetrate very well indeed.
Here is a picture of one that was recovered from a buck, 190lbs or so, shot broad side @ 80 yards or so. The bullet hit the left front leg and broke bone, entered the boiler room through a rib on the same side and exited the other side through another rib, coming to rest just under the skin on the right side.
It retained 90% of it's original weight and mushroomed quite nicely at just over .800".
Here it is:
This bullet left the longer barrel between 1650 and 1700fps.
I know this doesn't pertain to the original poster's request, sorry for the thread hijack, but thought it would be useful information, none the less.
Sorry you live in the people's republic of Kalifornya! (I was born in San Diego and grew up in the San Fernando Valley.)
I know that I have shot one hog with my H&G #503 Elmer Keith bullet from a Marlin 1894 in 44Mag and had complete penetration, broad side, at 40 yards, while the animal was on the run.
I also load the bullets that you mention, the Remington 240gr JSP. I also load the same in JSPHP. On our large northern Whitetails they will penetrate very well indeed.
Here is a picture of one that was recovered from a buck, 190lbs or so, shot broad side @ 80 yards or so. The bullet hit the left front leg and broke bone, entered the boiler room through a rib on the same side and exited the other side through another rib, coming to rest just under the skin on the right side.
It retained 90% of it's original weight and mushroomed quite nicely at just over .800".
Here it is:
This bullet left the longer barrel between 1650 and 1700fps.
I know this doesn't pertain to the original poster's request, sorry for the thread hijack, but thought it would be useful information, none the less.
David Sinko
Member
Since we are convinced that the villain in this load is the Barnes bullet, here is a simple test to perform: Take the exact same charge of whatever powder you used and substitute ANY other bullet of your choice of identical weight and expect to get different results. When you find the bullet that performs to your satisfaction (all other variables being equal), I want to be the first to know.
Dave Sinko
Dave Sinko
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