Core Owners -zeroing optics

[hardluk1]

Some of the optic out have a rather thick base to them and you may find your adjusting the dot as low on the lens as possible to get zero or close to it at shorter yardage . I took a RM6g off my our CORE for a clearer lens venom with a 3moa dot and like the trijicon the dot was almost bottomed out and still barely shoot to POA at 10 to 15 yards but was good at 25 yards was but I wanted a little adjustment to play with . UL TACTICAL makes a 1 degree shim them will correct that problem and they have a model that works for most optic brands . Cost of low too.

Optic Shim

 

[joeymfd]

I just ordered a shim. I was coming to see if anyone hade a solution to my venom on my M&p problem. And you did. Thank you very much

 

[Rastoff]

Something is wrong hardluk1. No optic should be almost bottomed out to get it to zero. It should be easy to zero at 7 yards. Easier to zero at 15.

I repeat, something is wrong.

What kind of a rest are you using to zero it?

 

[V0OBWxZS16]

What does a thick base have to do with anything and what do you mean by the dot bottoming out?

What is your procedure for zeroing the sight?

 

[hardluk1]

rastoff I can zero the dot optic at 25 yards . It does not offer enough adjustment for a 15yards zero that I like on a defense handgun optic so I added a 1 degree shim . Think about how sigs iron sights so often impact below point of aim. I hate that .

I have used dot optics since 1978 mostly with a DW revolver and a 100yard zero . A shorter base optic or one with more adjustment and deeper set lens may not be effected by this BUT I do not want a 25 yards zero . I can adjust for a bullet impacting a slight high at 25 yards and be back on at 50 . The trijicon I used for some years was zeroed at 25 yards and shoot a little low at 15 yards never did like that but it was almost bottomed out at 15 yards . I just wanted to correct that this time .This may not bother you but for some of use it does matter . I rather have bullet impact slightly higher than aim point on dot point . JP Enterprises sells and use 1 degree shims too so not like this is new . IT has to do with some optics with adjustments in elevation too as with there optic even when an optic has a short base .

I'm using the same adjustable rest I have used for since '78 and can still manage 4" groups at 100 yards shooting at a 5" black circle with a 3moa ultra dot on a beulher mount on my 8" DW 15-2 and shoot a 1.1 group with this apex barrel and trigger group m&p at 25 yards with the 3moa venom that prints slightly higher than point of aim . Still have to try 50 yards .

 

[Rastoff]

I mounted a Trijicon RMR on my M&P 45 with an adapter. Mine is not a CORE model so, I'm sure the adapter was far higher than what you're having an issue with. I had no trouble zeroing my RMR at 7 yards and had more adjustment available.

I wonder why I have no trouble and you can't get yours to zero?

 

[CB3]

Hardluk—when you say "bottomed out" do you mean there is no further downward vertical adjustment left in the optic? At 15 yards? And this has happened with both a Trijicon and a Vortex sight?

Either the mounting system is way off or both optics are out of spec (pretty unlikely). Having to shim an optic is a solution, but it is only covering up the underlying problem. Sounds like the CORE machining is the culprit.

 

[hardluk1]

CB3 & Rastoff . I simply put info up for those that might be interested and its not worth a debate . Got it . Mine need it and now its good to go . Seems like others use these shims too . Maybe its a s&w machining issue and after see a buddys PC revolvers with canted front sight problem I guess that's possible but I could care less at this point .

 

[V0OBWxZS16]

CB3 & Rastoff . I simply put info up for those that might be interested and its not worth a debate.

Is it worth clarifying your posts so that other people can understand the issue you're having?

You initially said "you may find your adjusting the dot as low on the lens as possible". Do you mean that the dot appears to be floating in the bottom of the optic window or do you mean that the elevation adjustment screw hit its' limit? Or both?

 

[hardluk1]

I did but guys like you can't understand so contact the companys that sell then and ask them . I done .

 

[V0OBWxZS16]

I did but guys like you can't understand so contact the companys that sell then and ask them . I done .

Well, that was uncalled for.

ETA I called Trijicon and asked them to diagnose your problem based on your posts. She hung up on me.

 

[hardluk1]

Hahahahehehe

 

[BigDog48]

I have a 5" CORE with a Venom on it, and I think the issue might be zeroing technique. It is hard to explain, but you need to focus on the target, not the dot. So when trying to zero, focusing on the dot doesn't get the job done. I'd watch some videos, like these: http://https://spotterup.com/red-dot-odyssey-mounting-zeroing-first-range-sessions/

 

[Rastoff]

...you need to focus on the target, not the dot. So when trying to zero, focusing on the dot doesn't get the job done.

Um, what? You're going to need to explain that some more. How do you zero any kind of sight by looking at the target and not the sight?

The link didn't work.

 

[Evintos]

Um, what? You're going to need to explain that some more. How do you zero any kind of sight by looking at the target and not the sight?

The link didn't work.

When you zero a pistol red dot, you look at the target you're aiming at and superimpose the dot onto it, rather than focusing the dot. The target should be visually clear and in focus.

The best example I can give (and it's not a really good example) is your eyeballs and your finger. Turn your head and look at something, and then without looking at your index finger, move your index finger to the object you're looking at versus look at your index finger, then move your index finger to the object you want to look at while constantly focusing on your finger tip.

This is counter intuitive to the traditional focusing on the front sight and aligning 3 objects on a focal plane which makes the target and the rear sight slightly blurry.

However, it's the best way to use the red dot. If you find yourself searching for the red dot post recoil and also find that you're faster with iron sights than a red dot, switch to a target focus (takes some practice) and you'll be much faster and accurate with a red dot.

I zero my RMR06 at 25yds (Apex barrel, 1.3" group). With the top of the iron sights aligned, the dot floats with a clear gap between the front post. If I were to use the dot at <15yds, the POI is consistently about 6" low. If I was to compare it to the iron sights, the impact would also be consistently low, except when I use a "combat sight picture."

At which point, if I use a "combat sight picture," I either would have to align my front post high, or aim higher placing the dot onto the impact point. Coincidentally, this also places the red dot also higher which solves the height over bore issue.

Red dots don't give you a visual alignment reference so height over bore becomes an issue at close distances just like it would on rifles.

Depending on ammo, I could see someone running out of travel on the adjustment if they're trying to get their zero at a close distance to be point of aim/point of impact.

 

[CB3]

Um, what? You're going to need to explain that some more. How do you zero any kind of sight by looking at the target and not the sight?

The link didn't work.

The advantage to the red dot system is that you focus on the target, not the relatively closer sighting system, in this case not the window with the dot projected on to it.

The dot is actually distorted or "blooming" for many people when they focus on it in the window. When you shift focus onto the target as a single plane of focus, the dot appears on the target at the place the bullet will strike, when properly sighted in.

If you have iron sights visible through the RDS window, and they are sighted in for a certain range, say 10 yards for defensive shooting, you can adjust the dot to sit just above (or on) the aligned front sight without even pointing at a target. This is kind of like bore sighting. The RDS should then be co-witnessed at the same distance as your irons.

However, such an alignment limits the flexibility of the RDS. The whole window in which the dot appears can be your area of accuracy as long as the dot is on the target. With the cowitness mentioned above, you lose the ability to use (see) the dot clearly when it is low, i.e., below the irons.

An alternate method for sighting in an RDS is to pick the range for which you would like to have it sighted. Typically 20-25 yards will give you the smallest vertical Point of Impact variance from close range out to a little beyond 25 yards. This is often less than 2". But you want the dot to be in the middle of the screen, not right on the front sight. Now you have the greatest latitude, left-right-up-down, for taking advantage of RDS accuracy. As long as you can see the dot anywhere in the window and it is applied to the target, that is where the bullet will hit.

This second method of sighting in is target focused. Shoot a tight group of three from a rest with the target at 20 yards. You can use your irons to get close. Then color a 2" dot on the target in the middle of your group. This now becomes your target focused aiming point for your dot.

Shoot another rested three shot group placing the red dot on the colored target aiming point. Focus only on the target. The dot should appear in your vision on the target, not focused in the window.

Adjust the RDS to bring that second group to the first group. Really, you will just adjust the dot to hit where the second group was. Repeat if necessary.

Your irons and your RDS may not be similarly aligned to the exact same point of aim. If you were to make that happen, you would be back to the disadvantage of occluding the lower aiming area the RDS could afford you.

Using the RDS is always target focused. This is natural, especially in defensive shooting. In truth, it is natural in all shooting because the point is to hit the target. Seeing the front sight is part of a method; it is not the goal. Aligning three planes of focus, rear-front-target, is difficult and unnatural, but it is what we have had for 200 years and we know it is better than having no sights. With target focused sighting (RDS) you ignore the iron sights.

However, the changes in planes of focus from target to rear sight to front sight to target to front sight put our vision at a distinct disadvantage compared to only focusing on the true object of our desires—one or more holes in the right place on the target. When the RDS is used properly, there is no close range (iron sight) focus to interfere with remaining focused on the target.

People can learn to be fast and relatively accurate with iron sights, although these two parameters are sometimes mutually exclusive. Another problem with irons is the required precise alignment. If the front sight is not fully visible and centered in the rear sight and on the target, we adjust until all these alignment cues are correct. That slows many people down.

The RDS overcomes much of this problem because the dot on the target, anywhere in the window, is a good shot. There is greater flexibility and speed. In truth, the misaligned iron sights are actually pointing toward wherever the red dot is in the window even though you don't see the iron sights.

Target focused vs. front sight focused = big deal, IMO.

 

[BigDog48]

what he said^^^^^! That is exactly what I was trying to say. Thanks CB3!