CS9 Chiefs Special slide recoil issue

Grumpa72

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I haven't been here in quite a while but today a problem occurred on my CS9 at the range. The slide will recoil normally except for the last 1/2" or so and then it slows down dramatically, almost as if in slow motion. I can push on the back of the slide with minimal pressure (maybe 1-2 pounds of pressure?) and it goes into battery and fires the next round normally and then we repeat. If I drop the magazine completely, the slide acts normally. Two different magazines were used and it does it with both, one slightly dirty and the other spotlessly clean. Full, empty or partially empty mags - doesn't matter.

At first I though that this was a dirty magazine or something on the rail but it does it after cleaning. Then I thought broken recoil spring but it is normal looking. This same pistol, same magazines and identical reloads were used two days ago with no issue. I was certain it was a weak or broken recoil spring, until I dropped the magazine and the function was normal.

Any ideas on what can cause these symptoms?

In the dark,

grumpa72

[email protected]
 
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Might sound silly and don't mean to insult your intelligence but once in past had a similar occurrence with a 3rd Gen. Put a drop of oil on each rail, problem solved. Just a thought...good luck
 
Might sound silly and don't mean to insult your intelligence but once in past had a similar occurrence with a 3rd Gen. Put a drop of oil on each rail, problem solved. Just a thought...good luck

No insult taken, especially at this point in my frustrations. When I do a major cleaning, I usually put a tiny drop of grease on a Q-tip and then slide the point of the Q-tip down the rail, both the receiver and the slide. I then wipe off anything that I can, leaving a small amount of grease there. I will give it a try after dinner.

Thanks.
 
How old is your little dark red recoil spring in the CS9?

Can you see & feel the presence of whatever lubricant (oil or grease) you're using on the entire frame rail surfaces when the slide is removed? (Top, outer edge and in the rail cut underneath the upper rail?) Not so much that it runs off or drips off under gravity, but enough for the surfaces to be covered (and easily verified by sight & touch)?

Exterior of the barrel similarly a bit wet to sight & touch, especially toward the belled muzzle?

How about at the top/front of the barrel hood (where the barrel drops and passes under the front of the ejection port opening)? Usually a light drop at the junction of the front of the barrel hood & front of the ejection port, when the slide is closed/in battery, is sufficient.

Presuming sufficient lube is present, I'd wonder if it were either an ammunition or recoil spring issue.

If a weakening recoil spring issue, it would make sense for a weakening spring to start to demonstrate difficulty when the following actions are occurring ... the slide is running forward ... while a round is being stripped from the magazine lips, being pushed up the barrel feed ramp, and its rim cammed under the extractor and up the breech face ... and the slide's pick-up rail is encountering the continuing resistance of mag spring pressure pushing the top round firmly up against the pick-up rail.

I tend to replace my CS9/45 recoil springs every 2-3 years, or every 800-1200 rounds (give or take). It seems (to me) not impossible that those short flat-wound springs might take a bit of beating compared to the longer round coil springs in the slightly larger compact guns.

Last I heard, the replacement recommendation for armorers was still the same as for the rest of the 3rd gen guns, meaning either every 5 years or every 5,000 rounds fired, but I tend to lean a bit more to the conservative side of things when it comes to recoil spring replacement.

The springs are relatively inexpensive (although not always in-stock).
 
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Fast bolt,
Wow! Good response and questions. Let me see.
1. I can see hints of the grease that I put on the rails but, after I put any oil or grease on, I take an old T shirt and wipe it off. Not agressively but a semi-thorough wipe down. I can faintly see it but not feel it.
2. The barrel - I put a drop oil on the top of the barrel (the hood?) and, again, wipe most of it off.
3. There isn't a hint of enough oil to even remotely be considered wet.
4. Recoil spring - it was on the pistol when I bouget it used (gently used) 5 or 6 years ago. Same with magazine springs BTW.

I would love to be able to replace the springs if I could find them. The pistol won't have 5000 rounds but it meets the age requirements. Wolff gun springs has been my friend because I usually buy used pistols, but for the CS series as previously reported.

While old springs may be significant here, I created my own monster here. What I typically do (did) was go to the range, weekly with my "pistol of the week", and shoot it. Then I would take my carry pistol, during the summer this CS9, and shoot 2-4 magazines with it. Next, I would pop the slide off and wipe down the feed ramp, the mag well, the slide and frame rails, and generally the entire pistol. I typically did a strip/clean/lube 2 or 3 times a carry season or once every 6-8 week. Apparently, my wipe downs at the range stripped every bit of lube from the frame. That doesn't mean that I also don't have a spring issue.

Got a spare one or a source?

I REALLY appreciate your comments. This is, after all, an ever day carry and a self-defense pistol.
 
I run grease on the rails an light oil on the barrel and internals. I do not wipe off the outside until I have assembled and cycle multiple times and then I only wipe down the outside. If that doesn't work I would start with a recoil spring. Eliminate one thing at a time. If those 2 items don't work I would check the extractor and see if it broke.

Best of luck and let us know what you figure out!
 
The normal lubrication shown to armorers, for normal environmental operating conditions (special and/or harsh operating conditions may require different procedures, such as less or more lube, or a different type, etc):

1-2 normal drops on each frame rail; 1 drop rubbed around the exterior of the barrel (mostly toward the muzzle); 1 drop on the front of the barrel hood; and 1 drop rubbed along the guide rod body. Nothing excessive. Over-lubrication is usually best avoided.

After armorer inspections, following a complete disassembly (which can include a thorough parts wipe down with a lightly CLP-moistened cloth, and then a dry cloth to remove excess residue), armorers can also add 1 drop (light) on each side of the hammer (where it rubs within the frame). Not enough to migrate and run off elsewhere inside the frame, though.

Oil-type lubes can run, migrate, wick & evaporate. Greases, depending on their thickness, usually have to be placed exactly where you want them to go. I've long used both oils/CLP's & greases (usually the lighter greases), and I've sometimes used a "slurry" mix of both (did I mention I'm a longtime 1911 shooter? :) ).

Mostly depends how often I'm going to be carrying the gun (outside in humidity & temperature changes), or the expected conditions where I'm going to be carrying & using it (dry weather, cold/wet weather, close to the salt water or rivers, blowing sandy conditions, etc).

I don't run my 3rd gen's as wet as I do my 1911's (except for the 4566/4506 guns, which have long rail surfaces), but wetter than my Glocks, SW99's and M&P's. Not as wet as I'd run a SIG (which are repeatedly referred to in their armorer class as WET guns, and that's where I picked up the "able to verify by sight & touch" idea of sufficient lube being present (it was a 2-part fill-in-the-blank answer on the written test).

My aluminum frame rails seem to lose oil-type lubes faster than my steel frames (or steel frame rail tabs on the plastic guns). Kind of like how the aluminum yokes on my M&P 340's seem to go dry faster than on the steel yokes in my other J's (and I've seen it happen fast on 340/360PD's, too, with their aluminum yokes).

Some folks like to apply oil/grease to the slide rails. I prefer to put it on the frame rails where I can make sure it's been fully applied and present (easier to see than in the front ends of the slide rails, especially when not in bright light).

When I manually run the slide on a CLEANED & reassembled EMPTY pistol several times, if I see whatever oil or grease I've applied ooze out the back of each side of the frame/slide rail junctions, I'm satisfied. (Wipe it off)

Try calling S&W and ordering a couple recoil springs for your CS9 (best to always have a spare if you shoot it often). Might as well get some mag springs, too.

Part # 263210000 $3.26 - RECOIL SPRING
Part # 201650000 $5.40 - MAGAZINE SPRING

So far, I've found replacing the mag springs in my CS guns seems to be fine if I stay along the normal 5yr/5K rounds recommendation ... meaning not as often as replacing the recoil springs ... but checking & observing functioning at each range session is still a good idea.

If the mag spring won't cause the slide stop lever to rise and lock the slide back during live fire - or when manually running the slide back and briskly releasing it ON AN EMPTY GUN & MAG, after cleaning & reasssembly - probably time to replace it.

Dirty/lubed 3rd gen guns generally seem to run better than dirty/dry guns ... or even a clean/dry gun, for that matter, although a clean/dry 3rd gen may run fine for a couple or 3 rapid mag loads, until the gun heats up, or it gets dirty (dropped in sand/dirt/silt, etc, or otherwise contaminated on the friction areas).

If some normal lube doesn't resolve your problem, I'd look at the recoil spring.

Better yet, considering the age of the gun, I'd probably just replace the recoil & mag springs, clean & oil it, and run your range session again.

FWIW, I knew a guy who didn't replace his CS45 recoil & mag springs for what he said was at least 10 years. He said he only fired it twice a year during that time, but he kept it cleaned and lubed the same way we taught for issued 3rd gen's, and it always ran normally form him. After I found out how long it had gone with the original springs, I strongly recommended he order new springs. He did.

Of course, it probably took close to a year to get him to actually install those springs after he'd received them, as he kept forgetting ... he said. :o

Just some thoughts to consider.

I obviously can't know what's happening with your CS9 without actually handling and examining it, of course.

Hope it works out for you. My CS9 is an excellent little subcompact pistol, and I find it very reliable and surprisingly accurate.
 
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Fast bolt,
Again, good comments. And you added a new twist in that it never occurred to me that an aluminum frame has different lube needs than an all steel one. I never even considered that.

Your description of lubrication points is remarkably like mine, certainly not from formal training like yours but more from reading as well as every day use.

Thank you again. When I get home (out of state visiting grandkids) I will do a thorough strip, clean and lube using many of your comments as a guide.
 
I didn't say it because of too much distraction at the grandkids house (some of you will understand) but dribbling a couple of drops of oil on the rails solved the problem immediately. I am embarrassed that such a fundamental and obvious thing such as proper lubrication of a pistol solves the problem. I said on the other S&W forum that since this is an every day summer carry, once I shoot the pistol (s) that I have taken to the range I pull out my concealed pistol, fire 2-3, maybe 4, mags of practice ammo. I then disassemble the pistol, wipe off the ramps, mag well, barrel, and slide & and frame rails. Because I did this several times especially over the past two weeks, I must have stripped all of the lube and that, combined with an older recoil spring, created my problem.

Problem solved, lesson learned.

Thank you
 
I rather suspected (hoped) a little oil on the rails might resolve your issue, although the little gun probably deserves a fresh recoil spring, and probably some mag springs.

Doesn't take long to refresh those few critical drops of oil, does it? ;)

Don't think you've discovered something new, though. ;) BTDT, myself.

I've found more of my gun cleaning chores have been put on the back burner on those days when I'm otherwise occupied entertaining the local grand daughter with fun and adventures. :) Then, there's the more frequent road trips to the newer grand daughter out-of-state that can make me delay things upon occasion.

Best regards. ;)
 
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Thanks for the great information (once again) Fastbolt! I do believe I've been using a bit too much lube with my firearms after reading your posts.

@Grumpa72, I just ordered some CS9 recoil springs directly from S&W last week and they were in stock.
 
Thanks for the great information (once again) Fastbolt! I do believe I've been using a bit too much lube with my firearms after reading your posts.

De nada.

Easy to overdo the liquids, though.

FWIW, I've had to resolve more "gun problems" that were actually caused by an excessive application of solvents, CLP's or other lubricants than I ever have real gun-related problems.

In the 3rd gen's I've often had to remove firing pins & springs to clean out accumulated sludge caused by the migration of excessive solvent & lubes into the firing pin channel. This is usually in guns where I've watched the owner/user literally bath the slide in solvent or CLP, and then they wonder how the liquid managed to run into the firing pin channel area. (Hint: It can enter through the firing pin hole, back of the firing pin, up around the firing pin safety or ejector depressor plungers and even around the bottom of the manual safety body.)

Another potential problem area for excessive accumulation of liquids is the extractor recess. It can enter around the extractor itself, as well as up through the narrow slot cut into the bottom of the slide (next to the pickup rail, on the right) on the 9/.40 models. I've used an air compressor to blow out liquids, pointing the nozzle up under the slide at the narrow slot, and watched the black liquid run out around the extractor on the side of the slide. (Wear safety glasses!) Also best to make sure the compressor isn't blowing moisture (in the air lines) into the recess, too.

You can just imagine the potential for excessive liquids to run into the firing pin/striker channels under the slides in guns like Glocks, M&P's, Sigma, SW99/P99's, etc, with their wide open channels on the bottom of the slides at the rear.

I've seen some users manage to gum up firing pins and sears so they can't move as freely as needed in as little as 2-3 years, and then I've seen guns run fine with barely a light dusting of dry carbon inside, that didn't bother anything, for years at a time. Just depends on the user-level cleaning. ;)
 
Thanks to all.

Oh, btw does anyone have a handy reference that can date this CS9. Serial number EKW01xx?

Thank you all again. Going to the range with this pistol to put several boxes of ammo through it. And I DID just find the S&W site to ask for replacement springs.

grumpa72
 
Thanks for the great information (once again) Fastbolt! I do believe I've been using a bit too much lube with my firearms after reading your posts.

@Grumpa72, I just ordered some CS9 recoil springs directly from S&W last week and they were in stock.

TercGen,
What was your contact for S&W? Phone, email, ? Can you pass along what you found. A search turned up this email address - [email protected]

grumpa72
 
TercGen,
What was your contact for S&W? Phone, email, ? Can you pass along what you found. A search turned up this email address - [email protected]

grumpa72

Hey grumpa72,

I would definitely call over email with S&W - I emailed initially and waited 4-5 days for a response, which was to call this # to place an order :rolleyes:: 1-800-331-0852, ext. 4125

I normally prefer to email, but have to admit calling my order in with S&W was nice and easy. I wish I would have started doing it earlier, rather than waiting on backorders from Midway!

Good luck,
-TercGen
 
Okay, we've spent enough time talking about the CS9, that I decided to move mine forward in the training rotation and take it with me tomorrow when I work the range. ;)
 
De nada.

Easy to overdo the liquids, though.

FWIW, I've had to resolve more "gun problems" that were actually caused by an excessive application of solvents, CLP's or other lubricants than I ever have real gun-related problems.

I started using grease recently (TW25b), and also replaced my Kahr K40 recoil spring with an extra power Wolff. First trip to the range and the K40 was really kicking hard. I thought it was maybe spring binding, but it measured out fine with room to spare, so I had to admit to myself that I got a little too 'excited' with the new grease. :o

I stripped all the grease/oil from the gun and re-lubed with just a dab on each rail (frame&slide), swabbed through once, and light grease/oil on the rest. No problems in my last few outings with her, and she's back in the rotation!:D
 
When I was trying some of that grease several years ago, I called and spoke with someone at the company named Mike, who said he was a chemist. He told me that when I applied the grease and spread it around, that if I saw any remaining white color, instead of just a shiny appearance of the greased surfaces, that I'd applied too much.

I still use it from time to time, as well as an older tube of the Wilson Combat Ultima Grease I've had for much longer. I think I presently have at least 4 different oil-type lubes, too.
 
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