Current Production Smiths

Gee, pushing the state of science aren't you?:
1. Lock- doesn't hurt anything, don't like it, remove it

Shouldnt have to. If you want a lock, buy a real lock, or keep the gun in a safe. 90% of us dont want or need it, dont force it all on us. There are lots of videos on youtube showing the lock is problematic. I dont want to take that chance.

2. 2 piece barrels- reduce stress on the frame, particularly with high intensity cartridges. That's bad right? Geeze

your conclusion is debatable, it may help certain k frame 357's which always had a bad forcing cone area flaw due to the crane clearance

3. firing pin in frame-an engineering and safety improvement, another bad idea right? You'd rather see someone's toes blown off or worse if they dropped a loaded gun?

Somehow hundreds of thousands of people made it through without getting their foots blown off. Also complicates design and adds one more part to fail

4. Recessed cylinder bores, accomplish absolutely nothing with rimmed cases.

Aesthetics if nothing else, this is kind of nit picky I guess

5. MIM, just as strong as forged.

Definetly not. Just ask current gen 4 glock owners who have guns with a defective, poorly designed extractor.

6. Poor QA as if that never happened in the past.
Don

Could have happened, but there seems to be a rash of poorly constructed guns lately coming of out Smith. Seemingly simple things like the barrel not being lined up correctly, internal locks not working, etc
 
Just buy one of these and your problem is solved. Everything you need and nothing you don't. Only problem is once you have one, you'll need another.

S&W 28-2
004-1.jpg
 
I own two modern (current production) S&W's.

One is the .500 Magnum. This gun is obviously a halo product for S&W. Mine is the 8-3/8" version with the non-removable compensator. I bought it used for $825. Like a lot of these guns, it had one cylinder full of ammo shot through it before it was sold. This gun is solid, smooth, and exquisitely crafted. I believe that this gun is to S&W what the Viper is to Chrysler, the ZR-1 Corvette is to GM, and the M5 is to BMW. They don't make very many, they're made well, they carry a big price tag, and there's probably very little profit in them. They're built as a showcase of what the maker is capable of.

My other modern S&W is a Performance Center 625 (the one with the red, white, and blue grips). This one was smooth and good looking, but turned in groups of about 8" off a rest at 25 yards regardless of who was holding it or what type ammo was used. I called S&W and described the issues I was seeing, and the customer service rep told me (without being prodded) that the gun was NOT performing as it should and insisted that I send it in immediately for service and repair. I had it back 6 days after I dropped it off at FedEx. They reworked the forcing cone. Now, it'll shoot a cylinder full into a ragged hole at 25 yards if I do my part. Once I got it back and sighted it in, I replaced the grips with S&W round butt finger groove Combat Grips. (I have the utmost respect for Mr. Jerry and his shooting ability, but his preferred pattern for grips just hurts my hand.)

My sample size is only two (current production) guns. One was great, one was made great by S&W's warranty service. I think the initial accuracy issues with my new 625 are the exception, not the norm.

I believe that the new guns are well made and high quality. I prefer the older guns because of their asthetics, history, and finish, but I can't say that the older guns are "superior" in any objective functional sense.

I don't like flat black finishes, I don't like rubber grips, etc. I like the older guns, but I don't think they're "better" than the new ones.

Some people don't like the guns with model numbers, some like only 5 screw guns, some like 4 screw guns, some like it as long as it has a pinned barrel, some only like the ones made before the MIM era, and some like only "pre-lock" versions.

Some of the same folks who didn't like the 586/686 back in the mid eighties because of "poor quality new gun syndrome", "cheap knockoff of a Python" or other similar issues now are seeking them out....
 
Read through the whole thread. For those of you who like your new guns, more power to you. For myself, the new guns are ugly. Sorry but that's just how I see it. If I want ugly guns I can buy Rugers. At least they don't have the stupid hole in the side or two piece barrels.

YMMV,
Dave
 
Last year I purchased a Model 619. It was still posted on S&Ws website when I bought it, and shortly afterwards it disappeared along with the excellent 620 from S&Ws lineup, which is a shame. I liked the 619 because it's basically an L-Frame M65. I've always really liked the K-Frame 4" HB square butt configurations. Sadly, S&W seems to prefer RBs these days, but it's not so much of a big deal to me, that can easily be remedied with the myriads of grip choices.

After I had purchased this 619 and was still waiting for the paperwork to clear (several weeks before I could take possession of it), I read posts about all the issues so many seem to have with the L-Frame IL, MIM, two-piece barrels, etc, etc, etc, and I thought I must have made a huge mistake. After I recieved it and fired it with both .38 spl and .357 magnum loads, I was puzzled by so many of the comments I had read. Scooter123 had given a really good report of the two-piece barrel and I was interested to test the accuracy claim he was making. His assessment was correct, it is the most accurate revolver I have ever owned.

I have to laugh at all the complaining about IL and MIM. It simply has no impact on the quality of the revolver that I can see, and as a matter of fact, the IL is useful to me. If you don't have use for it, then you don't have to use it. When I was a soldier, we always used to say "Better to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it". I am required to lock weapons when I transport them here in Germany, so it definately has it's use. I can think of a lot of other instances where it could be useful too, and not just in Germany. The whole MIM thing has no issue as far as I can tell unless one wants to say "it doesn't look good" which is a very subjective basis to judge something on. I haven't experienced any of the issues claimed by some, and always disregard third party stories of events.

I have read about issues with barrels and have experienced none of them. I've seen some third party stories of two-piece barrels flying off. All I can say is that my 619 seems to digest .38/.357 magnum loads routinely with no issues. I rather like the heavy barrel on my 619, but then I've always liked the 4" HB in J, K and N frames. As mentioned, it produces more than satisfactory accuracy, and I don't know for sure why, but this is the tamest recoiling .357 magnum of any barrel length (and yes, I've owned an 8 3/8" model 27 in the past) I've ever owned. I even changed out the goodyear's for Ahrends finger grooved combat grips and have no recoil issues at all.

That's all the good, now here's the bad. After I got my 619, I noticed on the sideplate a strange thing that looked a bit like a dent or a warp. The polish and finish on the the revolver overall was excellent, except for this strange indentation. When I queried the S&W service department about it, they sent back a one line email that stated they could not replace the sideplate since they were polished to the finished revolver. That was it; no offer to do anything else, no suggestion of a fix. The "dent" is not such a big deal to me and isn't painfully obvious and does not impact on balance or operation at all, but it was not much of a customer service solution to me. Two more slight issues; around the edge of the forcing cone, there were really sharpe edges, enough so it could cut a fingertip while cleaning (that's how I discovered it). It was easy to polish up, but a bit strange I thought. The other issue is that the extractor has a bit of a rough side to it; when extracting, if the cylinder is turned to a certain degree, there is a very slight "rough" spot I have yet to figure out how to polish out. I have given up on doing that so that I don't damage anything, but it's really only annoying and does not impair on functioning at all.

So, my assessment in the end is a little mixed, but leans decidedly to the thumbs up category. I feel this new 619 had some literal rough edges and some slight QA faults, but not enough to really give it a bad review. I love this revolver, it balances extremely well, is accurate and looks good even with the little blemish. In those Ahrend's grips it really looks good (to me, anyway), and has that classic 4" HB look that the K-Frames are so well known for; looks a lot like a model 65, which I have always liked. If I had it to do over again, I'd buy one just like it, and may even do that anyway since it's looking like 619s and 620s may even gain a little collectors status. There are plenty of older models that I want (I just purchased a NIB Model 547 for instance), but I would not hesitate to purchase a new model of anything from S&W after my experience with this 619.

It's really a shame S&W isn't making the 619/620 anymore since so many really like the M65 and 66, it was a good modern L-Frame version of an older and popular K-Frame design. I guess sales just weren't there.

619wAhrends.jpg
 
I have owned both, and while I prefer the vintage guns, the locks are disabled in my newer revolvers and I have had zero issues with them.

They are not pinned or recessed, and they are ugly, but my M&P 360 for example is hard to compete with for a 13oz 357 Mag in your pocket.
 
True, but hand finish & pride in workmanship did have it's place.

In the earlier years of manufacturer, producing anything including firearms, handwork was just a part of the process. There was no other way to produce the items. Machine processes were simply not sufficiently refined. CNC as well as casting as currently developed and practice have changed everything. Respectfully. brucev.
 
When I started this post I had no idea that it would generate the interest and debate that it has. Seems we're already up to 46 posts. This is a great forum of which I'm proud to be a member of.

Now, when I got interested in S&W revolvers I didn't know beans, hardly, about the old vs the new. Then I started reading. The only other Smith that I had at the time was my Dad's old M&P made in 1923 or '24 according to someone on this forum. So I figured a Smith is a Smith is a Smith. Now why would a 65 year old dude such as myself believe that S&W revolvers would remain the same as they always were and not change the way everything else has? So, I go and buy my wife a new 642 w/ Crimson Trace laser included. It's had about 300 rounds fired through it between she and I. Seems OK although I can't hit squat with it. My resident pistolero at my gun range (he's good) has got it grouping 1" or less at 10 yds. using the laser. I know it's right on. So that's that.

I really never gave it to much more thought, old vs new, until I started reading. Hmmmm, then comes along my M66-2 4" which I got for $400. Immediate love and infatuation set in. It's not scratch free but it is in great shape as far as I'm concerned and I never thought I would love shooting a revolver as much as I'm loving this one.

Hope I'm not boring anyone.

So the "N" frame fever hits me and I settle on a 27 or 28. No go, or at least not yet. Here comes a guy with a 629-2 for $500. Didn't want a .44 Mag but I'll take it for that price. We've not been able to get together yet, logistics not price. But I'm still hoping.

Boils down to this. After reading all the discussion on old vs new and the varied opinions, it is I who will have to decide for myself. I see on Smith's site this morning that a new 27 lists for $989 and a new 629 for $949. Most probably will be able to buy either for somewhat less. Anyway that will be the only thing that will tell the tale. I'll have to decide for myself.

I think I just might have to have both, a new and an old. Now it brings me down to this. If Gunny4053 will just go ahead and sell me his 28-2 I'll have at least half of the intrigue solved. After all Gunny, I'm a retired SFC from the Army also. From one NCO to another I know you could spare that 28-2 out of your vast collection.

In all seriousness, guys, I appreciate having this forum to come to and discuss things. I've been made to feel welcome numerous times and for that I thank you. All this is coming from someone who thought they'd only be a Glock shooter. I still love my Glocks but I feel like I'm holding America in my hands when I'm holding a Smith.

Anyone else that has a 27 or a 28 they want to dispose of please just give me a shout. Won't hurt to talk.
 
I'd bet if a million people were asked the question that the OP asked, you would probably end up with a half million different opinions. Personally, I've been buying and shooting S&W revolvers since 1972 and here's how I see it ~ Long gone are the days of old when S&W guns (or any product for that matter) were carefully manufactured and tuned by individual skilled craftsmen. The arguments that there is no difference between the looks and operation of the older guns versus the newer guns will never hold water because it simply isn't true. I have revolvers made back in the early 70s and older that look and operate as well as they did the day they left the factory - smooth as silk! Change began to take place for many, many reasons and here we are today.

I also own a few of the "newer generation" revolvers and I can say three things honestly about them as far as "problems" go - (1) Many of the new guns come directly from the factory with very poor finishes, (2) There are an increasing number of NIB S&Ws with canted barrels (2 of mine are canted) and (3) I've never had a functional problem with any of them. Removing the IL to me is senseless because you still have a gun that was manufactured with the IL, it voids the warranty, and then you have a gun that has a plug in the side of it that's uglier than it was if just left alone. I believe they should be made with or without the IL and allow the buyer to make the choice with one or the other being a premium. Furthermore, I believe S&W's lock design was a poor choice and could have been made less undesirable looking by installing it in the same fashion other manufacturers did / do.

So, new versus old? I love my older Smiths but I would have no problem buying a new one knowing full well it won't be as smooth or good looking as they used to be. In answer to the OP's original question, current S&W's are not "junk", they won't "fall apart", and they are very accurate. I believe no other manufacturer comes close to S&W's product even though S&W has problems (QC) that they need to fix to stay at the top of their game. So, armed with knowledge learned from experience and reading this forum, I will continue to purchase S&Ws, both new and old, without worry - its all about what you want!
 
1. Lock- doesn't hurt anything, don't like it, remove it

Shouldnt have to. If you want a lock, buy a real lock, or keep the gun in a safe. 90% of us dont want or need it, dont force it all on us. There are lots of videos on youtube showing the lock is problematic. I dont want to take that chance.

Not a fan of the lock however IMO the whole lock debate is WAY WAY overblown. Seriously, it takes far longer to properly clean a revolver than it does to remove that stupid lock.

2. 2 piece barrels- reduce stress on the frame, particularly with high intensity cartridges. That's bad right? Geeze

your conclusion is debatable, it may help certain k frame 357's which always had a bad forcing cone area flaw due to the crane clearance.

You've also neglected to consider the effect of a Tensioned Barrel on Accuracy. My 620 features a Tensioned Barrel and I'll stack it up against any one piece barrel. Really don't understand why all the resistance to the tensioned barrels, Dan Wesson proved it greatly improved accuracy and after 30 years and the expiration of the patents S&W finally did what they should have done back in the late 60's and stick in the muds non thinkers did nothing but complain it was a cost cutting move. Personally, I've always felt that Bangor Punta dropped the ball BIG time when they didn't promote Dan Wesson to Chairman and incorporate all of his BETTER ideas.


3. firing pin in frame-an engineering and safety improvement, another bad idea right? You'd rather see someone's toes blown off or worse if they dropped a loaded gun?

Somehow hundreds of thousands of people made it through without getting their foots blown off. Also complicates design and adds one more part to fail.

Actually I consider the pin in frame design an IMPROVEMENT. Make it much easier to obtain reliable ignition with a lightened trigger because you can purchase extended firing pins on the aftermarket. As for the safety aspect, IMO pin on hammer or pin in frame are equal as long as it's a post WWII hammer block lockwork.


4. Recessed cylinder bores, accomplish absolutely nothing with rimmed cases.

Aesthetics if nothing else, this is kind of nit picky I guess

Guess that you've never purchased a Non Magnum revolver, because the ONLY Non Magnums to feature recessed cylinders are the 22 calibers.


5. MIM, just as strong as forged.

Definetly not. Just ask current gen 4 glock owners who have guns with a defective, poorly designed extractor.

Your reply would only make sense if S&W produced Glock's MIM components. This process is HUGELY dependent on the process being CORRECT. Since I have seen EXACTLY 2 posts about MIM parts on S&W revolvers failing since joining this forum in 2008 IMO it's safe to assume that S&W does MIM CORRECTLY.

6. Poor QA as if that never happened in the past.
Don

Could have happened, but there seems to be a rash of poorly constructed guns lately coming of out Smith. Seemingly simple things like the barrel not being lined up correctly, internal locks not working, etc

Have you EVER installed a barrel on a frame? I have and it isn't nearly as simple as you describe it. Between the barrel clamp and the frame wrench there is very little of the barrel/frame junction that is visible. In addition when you get it close your trying to eyeball it in while using an 18 inch long pipe on the frame wrench to give you enough mechanical advantage to inch the frame in place.

As for the internal locks not working, in about 4 years I've seen a TOTAL of perhaps 3 or 4 lock failures on the K, L, N, and X frames. Considering the total number of guns sold in the larger frame sizes that is actually a very LOW failure rate.

As for the problem with the J frames, see number 1.
 
I am not an expert on firearms by any means but I know what I like. I have many S&W products and each of them functions as intended and appear to be well made. Among others I have a 642, two M&P 15-22's, .380 Bodyguard, Model 41,Model 22A and have just ordered a Model 29 Classic. All great at their intended purpose and I find fit and finish to be very good. Best of all, Made in America.
 
I won't repeat what's already been said.......my opinion is......

If S&W still had to handfit every single revolver, a new 686 for example, would cost double, if not more than it does now.

People poo poo the MIM process and many think that if it's not forged, it's junk. Ruger started casting frames and other parts in the early 1950's and still does to this day and those are some of the strongest and most durable revolvers in the world.

Colt used Sintered parts in their Mark III series and Colt collectors are still inhaling these guns for thousands of dollars, like the blued King Cobras.

There is nothing wrong with new S&W's, just that the internet allows every buyer of a new gun that's not perfect to instantly gripe on 20 different forums, and then 5 unsatisfied customers blow a small problem out of proportion to the point where it becomes "fact". It's a fact of modern production, even car makers turn out lemons that need warranty work, ask me how I know...............my $35,000 Dodge that I bought new off the lot had a faulty transmission mount from the factory, the dealer made it right for free, and I wasn't all over the Dodge forum saying what junk new Dodge cars are, I had it fixed and moved on............$35k vs. a $600 revolver is a pretty big difference:rolleyes:

I have plenty of older S&W's with problems..........tight forcing cones, hitches in the action, etc. Some as old as the 1920's had issues that clearly came from the factory.Most were just fine, but no company is perfect 100% of the time, except maybe Korth where you pay $20,000 for a handbuilt, custom gun............ S&W was not a "golden palace" that turned out perfect guns all the time, and "now" they are junk..........the Bangor Punta era yeilded some real lemons. I own a few.:cool:
 
Have you EVER installed a barrel on a frame? I have and it isn't nearly as simple as you describe it. Between the barrel clamp and the frame wrench there is very little of the barrel/frame junction that is visible. In addition when you get it close your trying to eyeball it in while using an 18 inch long pipe on the frame wrench to give you enough mechanical advantage to inch the frame in place.

I guess putting barrels on has gotten harder with time. Seems the old guys had no issues getting them on straight.
 
You wil be getting more gun for your money too, IMO. 18DAI.

What he said!

If I forget all the stories and hyperbole, and just look at what I'm getting for the price - including reliability - then the pre-owned ones are just a better deal IMHO.
 
I've seen posts on this board with folks waxing poetically about their old S&Ws and the quality of old cars compared to today. That says a lot about that person's objectivity.

The cost savings changes often times end in a better product, take recessed revolvers. The recess provides no benefit other than to foster one's nostalgic feelings. The lack of recess makes for an easier cleaning gun.

MIM is similar. I have not heard of a legitimate negative to the MIM, but it saves plenty of cost to build which is likely passed on to the consumer so they can better compete with Ruger, et al. Contrary to a post above, the people I know who have done hundreds of trigger jobs on revolvers much prefer the MIM. It's much easier and faster for them to create a tremendous trigger.

Way, way too many folks believe "back in the day" is better merely for that sake and not from any objective reasoning. The fact is people haven't changed significantly in hundreds of years, that includes morals, work ethic, etc. If anything the sociologic evidence points to man becoming better people. Technology has improved by leaps and bounds.

This statement isn't coming from a teenager or 20- or 30-something, either. Just someone who prefers facts and objective analysis over stories.

I'd buy whatever you like, old or new, and ignore the little anecdotal evidence. *If* you happen to get a specimen not to your liking S&W will make it right if it has a warranty. If it doesn't have a warranty, then caveat emptor.

I remember when the traditionalists claimed the Ruger Blackhawk revolver was inherently flawed because the frame is an investment casting, yet the Ruger Blackhawk is the strongest production single action revolver on the market. It was Ruger's investment cast technology that laid the foundation for today's "magnumized" .45 Colt. The came the transfer bar system...when Ruger incorporated that they changed from a "traditional 3 screw" frame to 2 pins...they made the gun BETTER by any unbiased standard but oh how the "traditionalists" howled and pontificated to the innocents to avoid the "New Model" revolvers like the plague and seek out the earlier models.
I too remember the "old" Smiths with the rich, deep, polished blue finishes, the case-hardened triggers and hammers...firing pin in hammer (which never was and never can be superior to frame mounted designs)...the hugh Goncalo Alves "stocks" on the massive N frames with a trigger reach the size of Regan International's main runway...WONDERFUL guns..."Man" guns and to own a M29 was to have arrived as a serious, knowledgable Smith & Wesson afficionado! I remember when stainless appeared and was never as beautiful as blued - mainly because the molecular nature of stainless makes it look BEST in a brushed satin or matte finish because unlike nickel or chrome it scratches easily and costs bazillions of dollars more to polish out anyway. Personally I LIKE the new Smiths...mainly the X frame models. It's clear the engineers at Smith & Wesson put a lot of thought into the design....resulting in a cartoonishly oversized blaster that still fits within a normal sized hand...has a very smooth DA pull and a SA pull that seems too light for a generation raised on semi-auto pistol ham-fist triggers. I LOVE the two piece barrel because it shows Smith has finally embraced a technology LONG KNOWN to be superior to barrel screwed into frame...greater strength, FAR greater rigidity, and superior accuracy. As for MIM parts....that's OLD NEWS...again, Dan Wesson was using MIM technology to produce it's triggers and hammers 30 years ago, and the technology goes back much farther...it's a proven technology to be sure dating back to World War ONE when the German's developed it.
I often read comments from people about the "low quality" of materials and construction used in modern guns with statements such as: If you face a charging bear with a gun with MIM parts the only question you have to ask is: Do I feel lucky?" Well, let's turn that around...to all who think modern guns are so inherently unreliable and prone to burst into shards in response to a harsh word I say: Are they so confident that THEY would face down some poor deluded sap with a gun containing MIM parts - confident that the gun would fail without being able to fire? I suspect not.
 
I have bought 7 new current production guns and I have no complaints with any of them. I also own several older ones and they have been trouble free except for a broken hammer nose on a model 10. I am 75 years old and I still like the new ones.:)
 
I had no idea this thread would still be active 14 months after I started it. Just goes to show that there are quite a number of opinions. After reading through the thread I think there are as many for as there are against the new Smiths. Possibly leaning more toward the new productions guns. I didn't and I still don't have anything against the new guns. I'll just hang on to this as I said in one of my posts. I do not expect to have to send a brand new gun back to the manufacturer the very minute you get it home. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. And yes, I'll buy another new one if it suits my fancy.
 
I bought a new 686 a few weeks ago and sent it back because
of .012 cylinder gap, poor sideplate fit and unfinished casting
marks. I guess I got one of the lemons! I don't know why, but
I don't have a good feeling for what they will send back to me.
I asked for a replacement but I don't think they will do that till it's been "fixed" a couple of times. Still waiting to hear from S&W.
 
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