Cylinder turn lines?

[BigBill]

I see m27-2 and m28 some with turn lines on the cylinder some with no turn lines. Is the cylinder lock up cam too high with the turn lines? I won't Stone the top of the edge of the cam lower and reblue it. I'm going to leave it alone. But does turn lines hurt the value? The finish on the revolver is 99.99% except for the turn lines.

Thoughts.?

 

[smithman]

All my used smiths have turn lines.

 

[armorer951]

Another recent thread......

Cylinder wear line

It's actually called a "cylinder stop". Perhaps moly would help??

 

[ivan_2001ve]

Some old revolvers don't show up a heavy turn line because they have been shot only on single action. Double action tends to make the turn line worse, but thats the nature of the beast

 

[k22fan]

I do not believe double action makes the turn line any worse than the same number of cycles single action but I had not thought about it before. What double action can do is peen the edge of the cylinder stop notch. There must be a better word than peen but none come to mind.

I advocate stoning cylinder stop edges but only to retard the change in the revolver's appearance. Turn lines are normal but nearly avoidable. Think in terms of removing atoms from the edge, not whole molecules. You only need to dull the edges. Even if that can be spotted it certainly is less noticeable than an obvious turn line. I can not imagine anyone rebluing the cylinder stop after stoning it.

Do turn lines reduce value? With revolvers that are other wise 99% they absolutely do. Without stoning the cylinder stop the revolver will look like it has fired the number of round that it has fired. If its stop was stoned before a turn line developed that 99% gun will look like it was barely fired at all. In 90% guns it makes no difference.

 

[BigBill]

Here's the turn lines. This m28 has a sweet trigger. I haven't fondled it in decades. It appears to be barely fired. No holster wear, nothing. I'm not a collector but I've been very fussy about the condition of what I purchased.

 

[rockquarry]

I seldom fire a revolver double-action, though most or all of my revolvers may have "turn lines". I shoot a lot, but haven't paid much attention to such things. Some gun owners apparently have difficulty accepting the lines, but I don't believe they hurt a thing.

 

[Nightowl]

The cylinder stop pops back up against the cylinder very early after the hand starts the cylinder rotation. Not much you can do about it other than perhaps, lightly polish the top of the cylinder stop and leading edge with fine crocus cloth. I generally don't bother.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Essentially, nobody cares about turn lines. Not in a used gun, anyway.

 

[jay72]

If you don't want a turn line, don't index the cylinder when closing. Simply line up the cylinder line with forcing cone.
It has nothing to do with double or single action. Any revolver that
is cycled will have a slight drag at or near the notches.

 

[OLDSTER]

I consider a revolver "turn line" like tire wear. Simply a result of usage.

 

[Hair Trigger]

Some old revolvers don't show up a heavy turn line because they have been shot only on single action. Double action tends to make the turn line worse, but thats the nature of the beast

I don't buy that. The operating sequence of the cylinder stop is the same, whether it is single or double action, and it drags the cylinder in either case.

I believe the difference in some guns developing more of a line than others is a combination of a couple of factors. Total cycles of the firing mechanism, from "round count" or dry fire or just playing with the action; and the microscopic contour of the cylinder stop's top edge, whether is is 'sharp' on the edges or slightly rounded, are the greatest contributors to a turn line. The spring tension of the cylinder stop spring would also have an effect; even though the springs are all essentially the same, a minute variation in spring tension, practically unmeasurable but not enough to affect operation, could over time cause more wear.

 

[rct269]

Okay------------------

Of course turn lines hurt value---compare the 99% gun with a turn line to the 100% gun without one---compare the faint line to the Grand Canyon!!

Yes, the turn line can be minimized by "breaking" the edge of the cylinder stop (whichever edge that is), also by polishing the top surface of the cylinder stop.

Now, the reason I don't know "whichever edge that is" (other than it's clearly the leading edge) is because I'm not much of a shooter anymore----handgun shooter anyway-----AND because I long ago learned that turn lines can be prevented (on a new gun) or minimized on a used gun by altering the timing of the cylinder stop.

Here's how I came to learn that:

I bought my first, brand new in the box gun----a K-22------with the funky finish. This was in 1956. The funky finish was the name of the game, unless you had the patience for a special order-----6 months for "Bright Blue". I didn't. By the spring of 1960, I'd had all I could stand of the funky finish, and sent the gun back to the factory. The accompanying letter of instructions went like this: Please refinish in Bright Blue, and assign this gun to your very best craftsmen, and have them make it as perfect as can be. I don't care how long it takes nor how much it costs. I had the gun back in maybe 2-3 weeks (a thing of beauty), the cost was single digit dollars (as near as I can recall), and I had no clue as to what they might have done to make it as perfect as can be.

Time passed, and in the vernacular of this hive, I shot the snot out of it. I got older and wiser with that passage of time, and after a very loooooong time came to notice my very pretty gun was still very pretty--because it had no turn ring. (Actually it does----rather faint---and it's about 3/32" long at the lead into each cylinder stop notch-------which is to say my S&W didn't work like the rest of them.

I told Jinks about all this----hoping to learn the what and how of it. (BIG mistake!!)

WELL----He had a conniption fit!! "They NEVER should have done that!! It'll skip chambers in rapid double action fire! I NEVER would have allowed that!!" I didn't have the heart to tell him about half of the half a box car full of ammo that had been run through that gun had been rapid, double action fire-------in my (failed) efforts to emulate McGivern---and that it had never missed a beat------not once!!

So---how to and what to? I don't know--which is to say I've never done it. I've sat and stared, and have an idea, but by the time all this came to light I was a whole lot more collector and a whole lot less shooter, and had no need. If it was me (and I had a need), I'd be on the phone to the big time gunsmiths.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[k22fan]

A couple more comments.

First for Ralph,
Feel the leading edge of your .22 Masterpieces' cylinder stop. I never cared which is the leading edge either. Since taking material off the non-leading edge can not effect functioning I just dulled both edges. However, our little pea brains can figure it out. Since we know which way S&W cylinders rotate we know the leading edge has to be the side of the stop that is not on the sideplate side of the gun. I'll bet S&W dulled your stop's edge while they polishing everything and dulling the edge is the only change they made that effected the turn line but I'm not betting money and I've been wrong before. Comparing how early your Masterpiece's stop snaps up to your other S&Ws what do you see?

Second for Bill,
It is too late for stoning you cylinder stop to make any difference. The last blued S&W revolver that I bought in like new condition was a 17-4. I justified paying its price by telling myself I'd get my money's worth out of it by using it. I drove it straight from the store to the opening night of a bullseye league then shot the league with it. That guaranteed it would develop an avoidable turn line. In hind sight I should have shot the first match with the gun I already had in the car and stoned its stop before the second match, but some how I have no regrets. If memory serves my first score was pretty good. Like yours, my turn line is there to stay.

 

[smithra_66]

It also depends on the revolver lockwork itself.

With Colt SAAs or the V-spring action DA's, the bolt is designed to drop in the lead itself, a very short distance from the notch. The only "turn lines" you would see on these types of guns is wear in the lead, UNLESS you make it a habit of turning the cylinder while the bolt is between the leads. If you load an SAA with the "John Wayne" approach and cock the hammer and lower it, no problems. Likewise, with a V-spring DA Colt when you close the cylinder, do not rotate it by hand into the next notch. Simply cock the hammer and lower it, or just pull the trigger if your gun doesn't have a hammer spur.

For S&W guns or Mark III or newer Colt DA guns, it's a whole different ballgame.

The cylinder stop is designed to drop between the leads and a long way away from the notch, directly onto the cylinder. The spring is relatively weak on these designs (doesn't need to be strong since the bolt drops so far before the leads). There's nothing you can do on these designs. You WILL see turn lines over time.

Colt takes the approach to make the whole cylinder a "lead" in the newer guns like the Python...each lead is huge.

So bottom line: if you see heavy turn lines on a SAA or V-Spring Colt, be leery. Someone may not have handled it properly over a long period of time, or the gun may be exhibiting "early bolt drop" from wear that wasn't taken care of. For the newer Colts or all S&W's, don't worry about a turn line. It's unavoidable with use and designed to be that way.

 

[rct269]

"smithra66" brings up more than an interesting point----Colt DA's with V springs.

I had one. We called it the Roper Colt----it had the whole treatment: Roper grips, sights, and action job. One aspect of the action job is germane here---the cylinder stop timing---and the accompanying sounds (Although the sounds were significant enough to call them NOISE!!).

So----cock the hammer: As soon as it (the trigger actually) moved, the cylinder stop SNAPPED down. It stayed down until the next chamber was almost in line, and then it SNAPPED up. There was more than enough power behind it to make the king of all turn rings, except for the fact that it SNAPPED up into the relieved lead into the next notch----AND the bluing in the leads had been polished off----leaving metal the same color as a turn ring. So there was a turn ring----maybe 1/8-3/16" long in each lead---but it was invisible.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[double-dipper]

"turn lines" aren't as noticeable on stainless steel revolvers. just sayin.

 

[rct269]

"turn lines" aren't as noticeable on stainless steel revolvers. just sayin.

There you go!!

Buy stainless, and have your cake and eat it-------no pesky turn rings to speak of and no bills from the gunsmith!!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[S&WIowegan]

Roy Jinks is not just an S&W historian but also spent many years at S&W as a worker and manager. He has said that turn rings on hand ejectors are "normal". If you don't want one buy only NIB guns that don't have one yet and never shoot them. Also look for/feel any burrs on the cylinder stop and clean them up.

Heavily used S&W revolvers also can develop peening on the stop notch which can/does cause skipping over the stop. If it happens to you during a match you wont be a happy shooter(I know!). This peening is most common in heavily used stainless steel revolvers than carbon steel due to hardness differences. This condition was heavily debated on the Enos forums about 10 yrs. ago. If your gun has this problem a good revolversmith can clean it up for you.

 

[BigBill]

I notice turn lines on stainless finish revolvers too they match the finish so there hidden.

Now would you leave the turnlines or stone the edge of the cylinder stop and reblue it, your honest opinion.