DAO?

[McE]

Not a fan of the DAK myself for similar reasons. Had a P239 DAK, shot it pretty well but it requires its own familiarity. Reading up on the history, I got the impression that it was more of a bandage to a troubled trigger design. They started with a trigger that would lock up the gun if you didn't fully let out the trigger (short stroking after feeling the false reset), so all they did was make it so a short stroke would still fire the gun, but they said don't rely on it, it's a 'just in case' 'feature'. Just couldn't stay on board with the Sigs after all of these bandaids they marketed as revolutionary.

 

[Pondoro]

Striker fired pistols and single action pistols both store energy in a spring. The striker fired pistol removes the visually scary cocked hammer.

You can build either gun to have a long light trigger pull or a long heavy trigger pull or a short light trigger pull. Modern striker fired pistols have a long trigger pull, and the weight varies.

Trigger pull weight is a combination of overcoming friction plus compressing the spring or springs. People buy after market kits to change the weight.

Forcing the trigger to add some level of cocking force to the striker spring is a convenient way to make the trigger pull a bit heavier.

Stated a different way - the action of the slide re-cocks the hammer or striker spring "100%" in a single action gun, re-cocks the spring zero percent in a double action gun, and re-cocks the spring to an intermediate level in the modern striker-fired guns. The manufacturer chooses that percentage.

A goon in a big-box outdoor store tried to tell my daughter that a concealed hammer revolver was "striker fired."

 

[TexasRaider]

McE,
My understanding of the DAK trigger and its history is not the same at yours, but I taught many folks to shoot it, and I've found that, once understood, it really is a very good system that can be shot fast and accurately, but admittedly it's although not for everyone.

It does have its own unique style, but then so does a striker fired system. Personally, I find striker fired pistols uncomfortable to shoot because of the lack of 'feel' that accompanies their pull, making them feel very uncommunicative to me, like driving a go kart - wound up way too tight with an predictable over-responsiveness I don't care for. I'd rather have communication between me and machine, where I know what it's doing, how it's doing it and can fell the process as it's happening. Glocks and other striker fired pistols feel like 'over clicky' toys that don't talk back.

Just my opinion.

 

[McE]

Sigs are in the same class as HKs, in that they have a longer trigger reset than necessary (for most of our uses). I'm certain it's a design aspect in the name of 'reliability'. More leeway in the range of motion for things to function. The 92 however has a shorter reset so maybe Sig and HK just gave too much of a margin than they could've gotten away with.

The M&P has a reset point that coincides with the break point (sear release point). That certainly spoils anyone trying to compare it to hammer guns that have a trigger reset maybe 1/2" past that break point.

 

[TexasRaider]

Heh, I think your feelings about Sigs became pretty clear by using reliability in quotes. Fair enough, no one is obligated to love every weapon.

However, the M&P reset hardly spoils any debate against it. It is simply another style of trigger. If anything has been 'spoiled', at least in my experience, it is the reputation of the M&P due to it's lack of quality. A thorough testing of that weapon by my agency led to it's being dropped immediately and with extreme prejudice, while the Academy that using was in still progress. A shockingly high number of failures in ejection, feeding and firing, on many, many pistols, clearly pointed out that S&W's polymer option is no real option at all. They were issued DAK Sig P226's, as the rest of the Dept has had since around 2004, to great effect and with no issue.

I know others may have different experiences, but I've observed and participated in tortuous testing of Sig's since 1989, and no one who rightly calls themselves educated in handguns would question the reliability of Sig Sauer's classic P series pistols. The trigger's may not be someone's cup of tea, but questioning their reliability only damages one's own credibility.

The same cannot be said of one questioning S&W's current reputation for reliability in the M&P line. I believe mine is not the first agency to test, reject and return those pistols for being, quite simply, unacceptable in terms of 'officer safety' reliable.

 

[McE]

Oh I was definitely not saying Sig's weren't reliable, just saying they may have just overdone the ensurance of reliability when they would not have lost any reliability with a little less trigger travel for reset.
I know the P226 is a great pistol, it almost stands alone nowadays if you're looking for a metal gun. I'll admit I haven't kept up with all of their trigger acronyms lately, so maybe there is some combination of short reach/reset/light pull variation that would erase my distaste for the DAK's "short stroke this trigger at the once-false-but-now-somewhat-true-reset and you'll have a heavy pull so try not to short stroke this trigger" approach.

 

[ggibson511960]

Safe Action

Seems I recall Glock or S&W or both calling their firing mechanism "Safe Action". My opinion is that the S&W M&P trigger action is SAO with a striker instead of a hammer. Your trigger finger and the primer don't know the difference. The trigger pull is not all that long, certainly not as long as the double action pull on a Colt or S&W revolver. It is heavy and creepy through its short actuation and has a ton of backlash after release. It also has a hinged trigger lower lever to make sure that something is inside the trigger guard pulling the trigger, hopefully your finger. To me, it's like a Luger with more backlash. If you study the trigger bar and sear, there isn't much cocking energy being put in that striker by the M&P trigger pull. The angles are such that the trigger must move the sear through a goodly distance to disengage the striker sear. Technically speaking, any single action trigger puts a small amount of additional energy in a hammer or striker by virtue of the engagement angles. If it didn't, the hammer and trigger sear would not relax to a safe position after a partial pull and release. Some don't after sloppy manufacturers and gunsmiths smooth off the sear surface. M&P's are tremendous weapons but the long backlash forces good trigger technique to keep from pulling shots off line. Nobody is going to be competitive at bullseye or metallic silhouette with one, but that's not what they're for.

 

[ghoffman]

I think the way to go for me is the P226 DA/SA with the SRT kit installed. I can get the P226 Nitron DA/SA for a hair under 800.00 and 50.00 more for the trigger kit. Install doesn't look any worse that the Apex Duty/carry kits and I'll have a target pistol with a nice short reset and a long sight radius. Might actually pay a smith to do the install just to preserve the lifetime warrenty, but even the factory install is less then 150.00. When I shot the 40 DAK I realized right away that this is a very nice gun, I just didn't like the double reset, especially because the travel was ridiculously long. The SRT kit sure looks like the answer. Speaking of answers, thanks you guys - I asked about DAO and I get schooled about DAK and LEM and SRT - l love it! Looks like a Shield in the holster and a SIG at the range - not too shabby!!!!!

 

[TexasRaider]

Oh I was definitely not saying Sig's weren't reliable, just saying theyisn't ine just overdone the ensurance of reliability when they would not have lost any reliability with a little less trigger travel for reset.
I know the P226 is a great pistol, it almost stands alone nowadays if you're looking for a metal gun. I'll admit I haven't kept up with all of their trigger acronyms lately, so maybe there is some combination of short reach/reset/light pull variation that would erase my distaste for the DAK's "short stroke this trigger at the once-false-but-now-somewhat-true-reset and you'll have a heavy pull so try not to short stroke this trigger" approach.

Fair enough, like I said, there's plenty of flavors. What you call the second reset on a DAK isn't a problem for me. On my DAK P226 isn't heavy at all, is very smooth and I can shoot it fast and accurate. Not so with striker fires, and they always feel like they're going to break when shooting fast. But whatever a fellow can use best is what he oughta carry, for sure.