Date help on Pre Mdl.36

[Penmon]

I found and purchased what I believe to be a pre model 36,square butt, nickel ,flat latch serial number 1135XX. 2 inch barrel, 5 shot, 38 special.
As far as I can tell their is no stamped 36 inside the crane I do see a larger stamped 24 and several smaller numbers including the serial number that matches the number on the butt
The pistol is in excellent condition, clean and tight with very minor light scratching and no noticeable edge wear, the sale price was $250.00.
I will post pictures when the paperwork clears next week.
So is it what I think it is?When was it made?
Thank you and Merry Christmas
Penmon aka Jim

 

[laytonj1]

Serial numbers ran from 75000 in 1955 to 117770 in 1957.
So yes, it's likely a Chiefs Special (pre 36).
Great price too!

Jim

 

[Penmon]

1957 would be ubber cool, as it's my birth year.
Thank you
Jim

 

[Hondo44]

It could be a four screw, do you remember if it had the upper sideplate screw in front of the hammer?

 

[Penmon]

sorry, I do not but will see it again on Saturday and let you know.
What would that mean?
Penmon

 

[Hondo44]

The more screws, the earlier the gun and the more desireable from a collector's point of view. The vintage of your gun can be a 4 screw or if closer to 1957, a 3 screw. The 4th or uppermost screw was dropped c. 1956.

Here are a pair of .22/32 Kit Guns from the same period as your Chief. Understand that one screw on each gun is covered by the grip panel. The top one has a 3 screw sideplate and the bottom has a 4 screw.

 

[Penmon]

live a little learn a little.

Thank you,
I now understand difference between the 3 screw and 4.
I have seen these terms before but did not understand that they only pertained to the side plate screws.
live a little learn a little.

I will post a picture when I get the little guy, it was part of a three gun deal,625-45LC, 1917 DWM Luger and the flat latch 36.
The two S&W are clean and tight the Luger needs a little work, but nothing a good soaking and cleaning, a safety lever pin, a new set of grips and a wood bottom magazine won't fix.

Thanks again
Merry Christmas
Penmon AKA Jim

 

[Green Frog]

Penmon,

I feel there is one thing that needs to be said here in our discussion of I-frame "screw count." You hear discussions of 3, 4 and 5 screw variants, but in reality, there are 6 critical screws needed to be accounted for if you totally identify an I-frame. All of them have the 3 screws on the side plate, and a fourth one is found up at the top on the earlier models. Earlier still, all of those screws were present plus an additional screw in front of the trigger guard which tensioned a small coil spring activating the cylinder stop. OK, so what about #6? All of the k-and larger frames have a flat mainspring that is held in place and tensioned by a strain screw near the bottom of the front grip strap. This screw is present on pre-War and post-War I-frames up until the "Improved I-frame" came along as the J-frame was taking over. So you see, a real, classic I-frame can actually be thought of as a "6 screw" and with various manufacturing changes the number goes down from there, to 5, to 4, and finally to 3 until the end of the run. Only a fanatic would care, but there you go, I guess it's my fanaticism coming out!

Froggie

PS Since your pre-36 is actually a J-frame, it will by definition lack the 6th screw. If it is old enough it will have 5, or it may have lost the trigger guard screw, or if late enough (doubtful) may have lost the top side plate screw and only have 3 (don't forget there is one under the "horn" of the grip.)

 

[SDH]

It can be really simple if you only discuss the sideplate screws, 3 or 4.

 

[Hondo44]

Thank you,
I now understand difference between the 3 screw and 4.
I have seen these terms before but did not understand that they only pertained to the side plate screws.
live a little learn a little.

Thanks again
Merry Christmas
Penmon AKA Jim

I have to apologize because by trying to give you a brief explanation just pertaining to I & J frames, I've unintentionally mis-led you. Therefore here is an all incusive explanation of screw count.

Screw numbering and screw count relative to frame or model designations:

1st rule:The K and N frame screw numbers and screw count are different from I and J frames.

Post war the I & Chief Baby J frames were all 5 screws; 4 screw sideplate and the 5th, the TG screw, i.e. 5 screw frames. The trigger guard screw is the 5th screw because it was eliminated first on these frame sizes with the introduction of the Model of 1953. So all I and Js became 4 screw guns after 1953. The 4th screw at the top of the side plate was eliminated next. So a 4 screw I and J frame has all four sideplate screws and can also be referred to as a 4 screw frame. Same with the 3 screw sideplate/frame.

A 5 screw K or N frame has 4 screw sideplates and a "4th" screw in the TG. Fourth because unlike the I and J it was not the 1st removed, it was 2nd c. 1960. The top sideplate screw was the first to be removed therefore it is the 5th screw.

So a 4 screw K or N frame has only 3 sideplate screws and the 4th in front of the trigger guard; again, the top sideplate screw, 5th screw, being the one eliminated first.

2nd rule: Always count the screw under the right grip because it isn't covered by the grip on most pre war models and early post war models up to around 1950. It's a domed head screw when not covered by the original factory grips and a flat head when covered.

Exceptions:
1. Early K airweight guns can be found with a "6th" screw or "bug" screw which is a lock screw for the top sideplate screw similar to premium shotguns.
Since I frame airweights weren't introduced until after their TG, 5th screw was already eliminated with the Model of 1953, their "bug" screw can be referred to as a 5th screw and the only Mod 1953 "5 screw guns".

2. The original K frames, .32-20 and .38 were 4 screw guns; all 4 sideplate screws but no trigger guard screw and became "5 screws" when that trigger guard screw was introduced on the 3rd Model M&P HEs (Models of 1905).

Note: Not to intentionally disagree w/my friend Green Frog, I'm not aware of any sources that include the flat spring tension screw in "the screw count" of frame designations. Personally I feel it only complicates an already confusing topic.

Now that's enough to make anyone's head spin and I'm sure more than you ever wanted to know.

 

[JP@AK]

I have to apologize because by trying to give you a brief explanation just pertaining to I & J frames, I've unintentionally mis-led you.

Hey, Jim
I am really glad you posted this because after Penmon responded to your earlier post saying that he now understood the "declining screw population history" I wrote a lengthy explanation regarding the difference between the I/J frame sequence and the K/N frame sequence. Then, just as I posted it, the site crashed and all my work went down the toilet.
I really didn't feel like writing it again. So I'm glad you took care of it.
Cheers.
JP

 

[Hondo44]

Thanks JP,
I 'm sure I missed some things and that you can add more so please jump in.

 

[Penmon]

Hondo44
I can not thank you enough, I have been eagerly reading the posts for 17 months now, in that time I have purchased a, 1917, 25-3, 19-4, 27-2 544-engraved, S&W 12 Ga shotgun, Pre 36, and a 625 almost all of them in the 5 or 6 in barrels.
I have been trying to learn and understand each pistol, however information is not always easy to find.I truly appreciate you taking your time to help and educate me.Some would, most would not.
Thank you
Merry Christmas
Jim AKA Penmon

 

[Hondo44]

Hondo44
I can not thank you enough, I have been eagerly reading the posts for 17 months now, in that time I have purchased a, 1917, 25-3, 19-4, 27-2 544-engraved, S&W 12 Ga shotgun, Pre 36, and a 625 almost all of them in the 5 or 6 in barrels.
I have been trying to learn and understand each pistol, however information is not always easy to find.I truly appreciate you taking your time to help and educate me.Some would, most would not.
Thank you
Merry Christmas
Jim AKA Penmon

Hi Penmon,
You just did and you're very welcome! Figuring this all out was fun but of little value unless shared with others that might appreciate the info. I've learned more from others than I'll ever figure out for myself so just "paying it forward". My biggest concern is passing on faulty info therefore very much appreciate those that have brought it to my attention and/or corrected me. Because at my age, I have made mistakes.

Collecting and learning about Smiths is more enjoyable with others of like interests.
All the best,
Jim

 

[Penmon]

Hondo,
It's a three screw,I will take it's mug shots on Monday and post them Monday night. So this is most likely a 1957-56 gun, close enough to my DOB.
The store I purchased the pre 36 from had several flat latch guns but this was the only one with a square butt and the lack of a 36 crane stamp.

Is the square butt less often encountered?

I tried both the square and round butt and in my hand the square butt seemed more comfortable.

I normal prefer blued guns, however the one pistol I plan on using for hog hunting is stainless. In this case I reasoned that for a pocket pistol the Mdl 36 nickle would wear better than a blued one, any thoughts?
Jim AKA Penmon
and Merry Christmas

 

[Hondo44]

Yes. In the early guns the square butt is less encountered than the RBs.
I prefer them as well and they feel better in my hand.

I too like blue guns, but nickel will defintely show less wear on a carried gun. The only issue with nickel is if it gets nicked or dented, that can be a source of peeling and then rust at that nick.

 

[Green Frog]

Hondo44,

I will bow to your superior experience in the field. I agree that the available sources don't make a big deal about it, but the only reason I felt compelled to mention this elusive "6th screw" was that the way I always get the most information the most efficiently is to inquire about the presence or absence of that one screw. That tells me whether I am dealing with an I-frame vs Improved I-frame or later, and I can tell a lot about the dating of the piece from there. Of course since S&W has retained the flat mainspring on the larger frames, this feature is only of value when identifying the little jewels of the I-frame persuasion.

Maybe I should just keep it as my "secret weapon" for gaining the upper hand in identifying age of a small frame gun. Soooo, "nevermind!"

Fondest regards,
that Pesky Amphibian

 

[Hondo44]

Hondo44,

I will bow to your superior experience in the field. I agree that the available sources don't make a big deal about it, but the only reason I felt compelled to mention this elusive "6th screw" was that's the way I always get the most information the most efficiently is to inquire about the presence or absence of that one screw. That tells me whether I am dealing with an I-frame vs Improved I-frame or later, and I can tell a lot about the dating of the piece from there. Of course since S&W has retained the flat mainspring on the larger frames, this feature is only of value when identifying the little jewels of the I-frame persuasion.

Maybe I should just keep it as my "secret weapon" for gaining the upper hand in identifying age of a small frame gun. Soooo, "nevermind!"

Fondest regards,
that Pesky Amphibian

Pesky Amphibian,
No bowing needed, I agree the tension screw on the forestrap is a key indicator on the I frames, not needed on any other frame sizes, of whether it's a flat spring post war transitional gun or one of the later vintages; post war transitional improved, Model of 1953 or even a J frame. I just wouldn't refer to it by a number that could confuse it with the "screw count" designations. But the idea of asking if there are 6 screws total (w/o grip screw) would certainly would work well.

All the best,

 

[JP@AK]

Thanks JP,
I 'm sure I missed some things and that you can add more so please jump in.

Actually, no. You covered it very well. The interesting early K frames that did not have the TG screw were so configured because they had an early type of cylinder stop that did not require the retaining screw for the spring and plunger. As you mentioned, this situation changed with the introduction of the Model of 1905, replacing the Model of 1902. I like to refer to the 1902 models as "pre-5 screw 4 screws."
Another point is with respect to the change from a round head screw to a flat head screw in the rearmost sideplate attachment point. In the early days of the Magna stocks, a relief hole was partly drilled into the right stock panel to relieve the pressure of the older round head screw, before it was replaced with a flat head screw. This had been unnecessary when the service stocks were standard because they did not extend far enough up the frame to cover that screw. After a short time, this extra hand fitting of the stock panels was made unnecessary by fitting a flat head screw into the rearmost position.
As you said, this stuff is fun, and doubly so when you get a chance to share it with others!
Regards,
JP

 

[gordonrick]

Thanks for the detailed explanation of the screw count issue. I thought I'd had it all figured out. Always something to learn...

BTW - my Chief's Special round butt is SN 930xx is a 3-screw as well so I'm guessing late 1956 to early 1957.