Dead Trigger

[18DAI]

"You will have to step up your price point."

Really? To what? A quick check on Gunbroker show these M&P's averaging around $500+. Overpriced, overhyped polymer gun with a lousy trigger, IMO of course.

Why would I pay that for an M&P when I can get a Walther PPQ for about the same money AND the PPQ has an EXCELLENT trigger right out of the box? Sounds nonsensical, to me.

Which did S&W forget how to do first - make a decent trigger, or a good looking handgun? Regards 18DAI

 

[BlackRain17]

"good, reliable trigger pull. " ---Please define this.
"scheme" ? --- do you own any 1911's , Glock, Ruger 10/22, or maybe Harley Davidson's products,

What you and I may consider a "good trigger", the newcomer may find it too light ; too short , and would injure himself or others. Then blame the weapon for his AD. Of course this could happen with any factory weapon,,,, I think you can see where this is going. (attorneys) . So Manufacturers make the weapons as safe as possible yet still be acceptable to the masses.

I would guess that S&W has to stay away from the "gray line" as one approaches a "good/great trigger" (CYA).

Every pistol has after market parts to "improve" , function/reliability/trigger/grip/ejection/feed/ etc. etc. If any weapon can be modified in some way, or customized, There will be a business to fill this market. (AR15)
I put the Apex FSS in my pro. Why?, Because it more closely emulates my 1911 in trigger performance.
Was it necessary? no. Wanted? Yes.
Why didn't S&W do this type of trigger? I don't know, Legal council maybe? who knows. I'm sure all the manufacturers can put outstanding triggers in their weapons, but the risk of litigation outweighs the profit.
It seems that in today's society, a business owner/ entrepreneur, has to constantly be looking over his shoulder for liability exposure.
No one is responsible for their failures anymore.
It's always the fault of others.

No disrespect intended, I just wasn't sure if you "saw" the Big Picture.

Sorry, didn't intend to ramble on in tangents,
My .02

Good point but why can't S&W make all of their triggers the same rather than making some feel better than others? I think what pisses people off is this inconsistency. I personally got lucky with a smooth trigger but why can't every M&P come standard with this type of trigger?

 

[BlackRain17]

Yes, I do see the "big picture", and the big picture is that M&Ps are severely lacking in the trigger department compared to other offerings. Not just poor trigger pull out of the box, but also prone to breaking with this "dead trigger" malfunction.

Let's say I buy a new Glock and I don't like the trigger. It will cost me $12.98 in parts and half an hour to clean it up, lighten it, make it heavier with the NY trigger, whatever I want to do. The only tool required is one punch. If I leave the trigger stock, it may be heavy and gritty but it's still reliable.

If an M&P trigger isn't satisfactory to me, I'm looking at $113 in parts to make it better. That's quite a significant difference. Additionally, if I don't do anything with my M&P trigger, the stock parts may give me a "dead trigger" at some point.

Aftermarket parts should be available for any gun, but with the M&P, the aftermarket triggers are too expensive and too necessary IMO.

Yes, this is purely your opinion. My trigger is stock and it's completely fine.

 

[SMMAssociates]

Just IMHO, but the M&P guns (maybe not the Pro series) are stamped out for Police service & such. Particularly the Full Size models.

Probably most of these guns are going to people who would be satisfied with a zip gun trigger system - as long as the thing goes bang....

The rest are either going to do some work on the guns themselves, or are lucky enough to have a smith or armorer who'll do it for them.

This is pretty much the way the old Model 10 revolvers came off the line 40 years ago. (I've got an M10HB.)

If you luck out, you get a really good one. Otherwise, it's acceptable if you're one of those "don't care" folks, and the latter will shoot in a bit if you spend some time dry firing (or shooting) them.

Admittedly, the M10HB I bought in 1968 may have had the finest out-of-the box SA trigger anybody ever made, but those were different times....

So, what we end up with is at worst, acceptable.... Those who would improve them can, but it's really not necessary.

The dead trigger thing is something entirely different.

From what I can get (from the web, and we all know how good that is), the dead trigger problem seems to be somewhat random, and only after quite a few rounds, in most cases. It appears to be the result of mixed tolerances and dirt or other crud around (under?) the sear. The design seems to make keeping this area clean a problem. Kicking this around elsewhere in the last couple days, it also occurs to me that the sear pin also needs to be adequately lubricated.

The sear rides on a pin that runs all the way through the sear and the sear block. If it runs dry inside the sear, and seizes up, the combination should still turn on the two holes in the block. If one of those seizes up, it's not going to work. (So, it could seize on either side of the block, or inside the sear itself, and still work, but not both one side or the other of the sear block AND inside the sear, too.)

Apparently the MA-compliant sear block (larger spring and plunger) won't do that, and S&W has recognized the issue and gone (slowly) to just shipping that block.

However, they feel that age and dirt are the source of the problem.

Adding the DCAEK kit to the older sear block seems to speed the problem up considerably. I'm not sure why, but my bet is on some bits not being quite where they're supposed to be. Installing the updated spring and plunger seems to fix it just fine, and newer guns may not have the problem at all. AND we get a trigger that's quite close to the SA trigger on my ancient M10HB, too.

But you don't have to.... Don't update the trigger, and DO see what you can do to get that updated sear block into the gun (or find out if you have one), and you shouldn't have problems long enough to get around to the update.

Dan Burwell did a superb DIY article for what amounts to the Apex updates, btw. If you ignore the sear updates he suggests, he also suggests a fix for the drop safety plunger that about anybody can do, but as importantly, it explains the Apex mods, too.

Short answer is to not panic. The un-Apex'd gun should be fine long enough to get around to updating the sear block. Shooting or dry firing the gun will smooth out the trigger, too, without messing up anything. Adding the drop safety plunger update will help further without changing the sear (and causing sear-related problems).

Just IMHO, of course....

Regards,

 

[g_conway]

I have several Glocks and never had a problem with any of them. I did have a problem with an XD trigger; but that was after I had the factory customized it with a trigger job. I sent it back and they fixed it.
I regularly watch the Glock forum and have read innumerable articles and books available on the Glock and have not seen anything about " dead triggers."
There is a lot of griping about the Gen 4 Glocks. Seems to me Glock was trying to fix something not broken.
Seems as if the M&P had a trigger problem and fixed it. The two most popular pistols on the IPSC and IDPA circuit seem to be S&W and Glock. Those shooters shoot a whole lot. I know I shot IPSC for twelve years back in the day that the 1911 ruled. A Pistol with a problem and unable to take a lot of rounds did not last long with those shooters. Usage is the best test. I am hoping Smith gets a lot of the police market back from Glock with the M&P.

Here are four links I found in less than 10 min of looking.

As I said before; ALL manufacturers have had problems at various times.
Not trying to start another “my brand is better than yours” issue, just making a point.

To me, the issue with M&P triggers is one of expectation. I did not expect it to have a target quality trigger, I expected it to fire when I pulled it. I purchased the DCAEK kit because I decided to Modify trigger pull to more closely align with a target gun, without sacrificing safety, NOT because there was anything wrong with the factory trigger.


Glock trigger return spring - Public Service Announcement

Glock 21, failure to fire, bad trigger bars - TheFiringLine Forums

The Gun Zone -- More Glock Problems

LAPD BANS GLOCK 21 MECHANICAL FLAW - AY DETAILS ANYONE? - THR

 

[amazingflapjack]

As far as "service" pistols go, the .40 S&W has got to have the sharpest recoil of the 3 typical calibers in those kinds of guns, and when you consider the number of rounds through them, it tells me that the various companys have underestimated the collective effect of the .40 on their hardware. Of course, it hasn't been in widespread use anywhere near as long as the other two, but I would guestamate that the failure in ALL brands of pistols in this caliber is much higher in proportion to the others. Just a thought and observation from my own experience with the .40. It's great in my 610! You know, I don't think it is realistic to expect a gun that weighs so much less, that's made out of plastic, to hold up like one made out of steel, especially in a caliber with traits like the .40 S&W.Flapjack.

 

[remat457]

I think that despite as much as we read on the internet about their triggers and the infamous lack of trigger reset, the majority of buyers seem happy with the stock trigger.

I have noticed that do seem to be improving the triggers though. Actually, I can say the same thing about Gen3 GLOCKs too--improved triggers over the years. Ironically, the Gen4 22 I played with seemed to have a worse trigger out of the box, but I digress.

A dead trigger? Well, that is a completely different story.

 

[kbm6893]

You shouldn't have to install $100 worth of aftermarket parts in your M&P to get a good, reliable trigger pull. This aftermarket trigger segment for the M&Ps seems like a massive scheme. People are spending big $$$ to buy the triggers that should have been in their guns originally.

I agree. For some reason, we tolerate this on firearms when we wouldn't on anything else. Imagine buying a car and then having to get a transmission upgrade to insure reliable shifting into drive, or buying a brand new computer but having to upgrade your operating system before you could surf the web. The gun should be coming from the factory in perfect operating condition. Like kahr telling you to shoot 250 rounds as a "break in" before the gun should be reliable. The gun should be reliable from the box. How come other companies don't expect the buyer to break in the gun before reliability can be expected?

 

[jerry1952]

The M&P has a great trigger and my Wife just loves Her M&P40C.
This is a new Gun and will have its problems like any other pistol with a new design. All have issues and the longer they are sold the better they are built.
Glock had their problems, (yes they did) when they first came on the market and that is why I have never owned one. I would own one now because it is a dependable gun.
I waited for the M&P to be on the market for a while before I would okay my wives choice of Her 40C.
And I still had to send it back to solve a minor problem but that is what CS is about.
As for Me I like the trigger just the way it is and do not see the advantage of changing it with a 3rd party trigger Why?
Be safe

 

[SMMAssociates]

kbm6893:

A good part of the issue is that these guns are made for a price, and the ones that go into LE service should have an associated armorer to handle minor break-in issues. For the rest of us, just shoot the heck out of it, and all the problems will either jump out at you (and S&W's CS folks will help out), or you'll burn 'em off (stock triggers will improve with use).

The dead trigger problem seems to be a long-term potential, rather than something to absolutely expect, unless you do the DCAEK (or, I would expect, any of the Apex sear mods). You don't need any of these for a Service gun, or SD work - it's just better with them, but the dead trigger is a caveat unless you have the newer sear block, in which case, you shouldn't have the problem.

I remember buying new cars, and then taking the car back a week or two later with a long list of things to fix. We accepted that with cars that cost a lot more than an M&P. I would still expect some of that, although the last new car (in 1989) went through the warranty period with only one problem, and that turned up quite late - one of the little bitty bypass hoses around the heater valves grew a hole. Made it back to the dealer without a tow....

I don't think the manufacturers can test these guns to the point of "perfect" and still sell them for anything we'd likely pay for a Tuppergun.... They also have to design something they can crank out without going crazy of the cost of tooling - cutters and molds wear. Kinda "do the best you can", which seems to be pretty good.

Just IMHO, of course.... During WWI and WWII, a fresh out of the box Colt GM would likely survive about anything we could throw at it. But when people start mucking with it for accuracy, better triggers, etc., some of that "drive a jeep over it" went away....

(No, I'm not that old. But close ....)

In short, if you don't upgrade the sear, odds are that the gun will work reliably. If the tolerances were a little wrong, or some crud gets into the sear block, who knows, eventually. But S&W has changed that, and you can get that upgrade, should you feel you need it, easily. If you wait about another year, Brownells and Midway should have the new blocks (about $30) and you can swap it yourself. (Anybody's guess what you'd get from them now.) It's the guys who've done the Apex upgrade (for whatever reason) that should run to the mailbox and get the sear block upgrade now....

Regards,

 

[g_conway]

Sooner or later, some of you folks will learn the differance between WANT and NEED.

There is nothing wrong with the standard M&P trigger, it can be IMPROVED with the kit.

I'm sure none of you EVER put additional money into a gun. Why would you do that if it was so great from the factory?
For you Kimber, etc users; surely you dont think they are stock.

I am so happy to see this stuff on the Ford vs. Chevy forum!

 

[Aubie]

I don't see what this problem is all about. I have a M&P 40FS, manufactured and test fired 2-9-11. When I got the gun the trigger was a little stiff and gritty. I purchased it on 5-4-11. As of today's date, I have shot 542 rounds through it, I keep count. The trigger is smooth and no more gritty feel. Around 9.5-10# trigger. Since this gun has no safety, I do not want less for CCW. My friend that shoots with me has a Sig P226 Elite in .40. My trigger now is just as good as his. I know because I have shot it.

What occurred is my gun broke in. All the parts had to marry and rub off the newness. I have a S&W BG 380, same thing, my Bersa Thunder 380 DLX, same thing. All were stiff because they were NEW!

If most folks would just shoot what they have and not worry about problems that may or may not ever occur, or do I need this or that, or I read this article and now my gun is not right, they would be much better off.(It's on the Internet so it's true) And most likely have a little more of their money still in the bank.

When a problem occurs, if you purchased it new, use your warranty. That's what it's there for and if S&W has it in for service, if it needs upgrading, they will perform it. 9 out of 10 times, free of charge, unless you have been tinkering with it, because they know your gun better than you do. They made it so they know what it needs and don't need. The M&P is just a good mid range price gun that most folks can afford to own. Just load em up and shoot them. If if breaks then get it fixed and keep on shooting.