dealing with large cases
- Thread starter Jaco1234
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gwpercle
Member
The easiest and safest way to take up room in those large cases is to use deep seated wadcutter bullets , this is exactly what these bullets are designed to do . I shoot a lot of target 38 Special loads and the wadcutter bullet is the easy answer . Wadcutter bullet moulds can be had in 38 cal , 41 cal , 44 cal. and 45 cal ... I just bought two NOE wadcutter moulds , one in 38 cal. and the other for 41 Magnum ...to load cast bullet Target loads . You can do the same in 45 Colt .
Trail Boss was designed to be bulky and take up unwanted space in large cases ... as far as I know ...there is no other that duplicates it .
I was always warned NOT to use over powder wads in smokeless handloads ... I didn't question the practice I simply light load with wadcutter bullets . Cast wadcutters that have solid base can be driven to mid range velocities with no fear of blowing the skirt off the soft swaged HBWC's .
I never tried the fiber fill thing either ...it was a lot of tedious measuring and weighing of the fiber and then getting it to stay put inside the case ...too much work for me ... I'm sure others with experience will be along to shed light on this subject .
Gary
Trail Boss was designed to be bulky and take up unwanted space in large cases ... as far as I know ...there is no other that duplicates it .
I was always warned NOT to use over powder wads in smokeless handloads ... I didn't question the practice I simply light load with wadcutter bullets . Cast wadcutters that have solid base can be driven to mid range velocities with no fear of blowing the skirt off the soft swaged HBWC's .
I never tried the fiber fill thing either ...it was a lot of tedious measuring and weighing of the fiber and then getting it to stay put inside the case ...too much work for me ... I'm sure others with experience will be along to shed light on this subject .
Gary
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Cdog
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Unique, Universal, and HS 6 are old standby's for these cartridges.
Load density is listed in most manuals. Higher LD = More case fill with selected bullet.
Load density is listed in most manuals. Higher LD = More case fill with selected bullet.
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I routinely use 14.0 grains of Unique under 350 grain LRN in 45-70 cases with excellent accuracy and uniformity. Wouldn't worry about those pistol cases and standard powders.
When I saw the thread title I was thinking it would be about the large rifle rifle cases like 45-70 and such.
Fill 'em full of black powder, but the Unique path is cleaner.
John
Fill 'em full of black powder, but the Unique path is cleaner.
John
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I don't have any experience with wads. Not sure this is necessary. I've certainly shot many 10's of thousands of .38's with a 158gr LSWC and 4.0 gr of W231 over the years without incident. Also thousands of .41 magnum with 6.0 gr of Universal.
What's your objective, Jaco1234? Many of us have read that high loading density - a full case - is advised for accuracy. That's typically suggested for rifle cartridges, although exceptions exist. For example the above-mentioned use of Unique in a 45-70. I figure most of us just go by the data in loading manuals and disregard loading density and fillers.
If you're concerned about variability due to powder position in the case, then some powders are touted a "position insensitive." I can't tell you which ones, though, since I've paid little attention to powder position issues.
If you're concerned about variability due to powder position in the case, then some powders are touted a "position insensitive." I can't tell you which ones, though, since I've paid little attention to powder position issues.
Hair Trigger
US Veteran
Both are forgiving cases with lower density loads, but stay within the recommended load ranges, in other words, not below the lowest posted data.
Power Pistol is an excellent powder for .38 Spl., with a wide range of loads for several bullet weights. I load 125 and 158 grain JHP's or flat-nose plated bullets. 5.5 grains PP will drive a 125 grain to a tad over 800 fps, and 7.1 grains is a +P load around 1050 fps. For 158's, PP at 4.5 grains is a tad over 600 fps, and 6 grains is a +P load, about 850 fps.
What do you shoot .45 Colt in? Something like a SAA, or M25 S&W, or a heavier framed gun like a Ruger Blackhawk or Thompson Contender? The SAA and M25 won't handle the higher end of .45 Colt loads, keep the MV around 800-850 fps tops. Again, Power Pistol works well in the .45 Colt case, but an 850 fps load for a 250 grain round nose flat point plated bullet, (8.7 grains) barely half fills the case. Accurate #5 takes 10.4 grains to give the same velocity, so it will take up a tad more room in the case. The big 250 grain bullet does take up some room, as it seats pretty deep.
I shoot .38Spl. in four S&W's, all .357 magnum guns, 2 K frame and 2 N frame, and generally load mine to +P levels. I shoot .45 Colt in a S&W M25-5 and have no problems with any of the stated loads, which I use straight from the Hornady 10th edition manual. I don't use any filler in the cases, no dacron plugs, etc.
Alk8944
US Veteran
NEVER, NEVER, NEVER even think of using an over powder wad in any cartridge except those using black powder!!!!!! And then only when the case is filled 100% to the base of the bullet. Doing so can result in damage to the firearm. Where did you get this silly idea?
It is acceptable to use filler wads to take up the case volume not occupied by either the powder charge or bullet, but then only if the filler wads fill the case to the bullet base and at least lightly compress the powder.
I have been loading for over 60 years and have never found a reason to use a filler wad in anything except large black powder cartridges. I load nearly 120 different cartridges for just about everything you have probably ever heard of, and a lot you haven't! Enough experience for you?
.38 Special and .45 Colt are not large cases! 45/70 and larger
An old trick with 454 Casell loads with smaller volume powder charges is to use polyester pillow filling on top of the powder charge. You can a cheap bag at Walmart and it will last a long time. It’s perfectly safe and some argue safer than not using it.
buck460XVR
Member
LOL....same here. After reloading .460 for a coupla decades, I don't really think of a .38 case as being "large". That said, everything is relative, eh? I assume the OP is relating to the fact that most fast powders used for .38 Special don't use the majority of the case volume available. Never seemed to be an issue for me tho, but then there is a similar issue with .45 ACP. I use pretty much Bullseye or Unique for both and have found them not to be
position sensitive or inaccurate because of fill.
A wad or filler is not needed in these cases and is just extra work, expense and waisted time
that is added to your time making up loads.
Just use a bulky powder or seat a large bullet as deep as it is safe, per loading data, to reduce case volume.
I too have been reloading for a while and never used an over powder wad. Several years ago there was a fad going around of filling the empty space with Cream of Wheat. IIRC it was thought to "scrub the barrel" following a lead bullet down the barrel. I played with that idea for a while but quit after I saw no cleaner barrels and performance was no different than my "standard" 44 Mag., 44 Spec., 38 Spec. or 357 Mag. cast bullet handloads. Six grains of W231 in the bottom of a 44 Magnum case don't hardly take up much room, but performed OK...
For my info only, what is the reasoning behind needing more than 1/4 fill?
For my info only, what is the reasoning behind needing more than 1/4 fill?
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Hair Trigger
US Veteran
Sounds like a load that would really clean you out.
Here's an article from ReloadAmmo.com, from about 1995, that tells about a phenomenon that can happen in an under-loaded case, where there is a lot of "dead space" in the case. It is unpredictable, meaning hard to duplicate when desired for research, to figure out the dynamics of why it sometimes happens. There is a lot of individual experience in the article, and a good bit of empirical evidence of why it happens.
Light loads in large cases can explode (2007 update) - Reload Ammo | Founded By M.D. Smith in 1996
Funflyer
Member
Talking standard or cowboy load pressures, the only two powders I've tested in 45LC that fill the case at least half way are Green-Dot and Unique, and both work very well without a wad. However, there are a few other powders I found are more accurate but since they fill only about a fourth of the case I like to use a wad over them. Those are Titegroup, AA#2 and Bullseye. Early on I wasn't sure it made a difference, however since then I've tested with and without the wad and discovered it absolutely does make a significant difference with ES, SD and accuracy.
Some say Never use a wad over smokeless powder but without actually explaining why, they're simply passing on paranoia and not any of their so called experience. Done properly a wad is perfectly safe and also has it's benefits.
Where this "never use a wad" comes from is light smokeless loads in long rifle cartridges like 45-70 and others. It's been discovered that a shockwave, which results from the squaring up of powder in the case and up against the primer, can cause a pressure spike when it impacts the base of the bullet. The result over time is a ring, or bulge that forms in the chamber at the location of the bullet's base. I've even read that this can happen without a wad by firing straight up so the powder is square in the case and against the primer. I haven't been able to find any info regarding this affecting pistol cartridges but it's something to think about.
Now from everything I've read, a simple way to prevent this shockwave induced pressure spike is to not place the wad directly on the powder, but to leave a gap which allows the powder to slump behind it. I typically keep the wad about 1/8" in front of the powder.
I make my wads from an acrylic felt and double up (spray glue) the material before punching them out. This makes them wide enough to remain square in the case. I also use a punch made from 1/2" stainless tube so the wad's larger diameter helps to keep them put. Is all this worth the trouble? That's up to the individual, but I consider it just another part of the hobby and don't mind the extra effort.
Attachments
1] In shooting terms I would not describe the 38 special as a large case, 45 LC is a perhaps.
2] In the M.D. Smith article linked above, several shooters were using loads not found in handbooks.
3] It has been argued successfully, IMO, that the probable cause of PPC loads showing high pressure with small loads can be traced to deep seating bullets causing a very high pressure spike.
4} I believe that sticking to published loads in a trusted, printed manual, not the net, should be perfectly safe.
2] In the M.D. Smith article linked above, several shooters were using loads not found in handbooks.
3] It has been argued successfully, IMO, that the probable cause of PPC loads showing high pressure with small loads can be traced to deep seating bullets causing a very high pressure spike.
4} I believe that sticking to published loads in a trusted, printed manual, not the net, should be perfectly safe.
