Defusing and De-escalation

[gerhard1]

In a short search of this site I have seen plenty of posts saying this gun is great for defense and maybe that one is not so good.

That is well-and-good, but what about how to avoid getting into situations in the first place? Before you need the fight-stopping power of the gun that you have chosen.

Let's assume that you are in a WalMart and you bump into a stranger. Most of the time a simple 'pardon me' will suffice, and there is nothing more to it. What, however, if a simple 'sorry, bud' doesn't' do it? In this case the man is very angry and it looks like it he could come at you any minute.

What is the best thing that you can do here? I'd try walking away.

Or, what if he has you in a position where you can't retreat? Would you do any differently?

How would you defuse or deescalate?

Obviously, if he is bent on robbing me, the D&D angle won't work, but if it's a matter of pride, they might.

So, if this happens, what do you do to avoid the use of deadly force?

 

[robertrwalsh]

I avoid, as best as I can, places and situations where confrontation is likely. I do not go to bars. (Don't drink any more.) I NEVER go to house parties. (Too old for that any way.) I avoid trouble-prone areas, especially after dark. I avoid hanging out with jerks, especially jerks who drink too much or otherwise use too much in the way of intoxicants. It is easy for me as I am not the most social guy in the world. If you are really gregarious it would no doubt be harder.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Most people are all talk. So while they’re talking, I walk away.

 

[geeollie]

Proverbs says a soft answer turns away anger. I try to practice that.
Bump into someone accidentally I apologize first. If I must step in from of someone or enter their space (store isle) I stop and ask permission. Every male stranger is "Sir" every female is "Mame"

Last time I practiced self defense was to cross the street a 1/2 block early to avoid a group of men loitering.

These are simple things that cost me nothing. If someone is bent on harming me I would walk and run if I could.

 

[Ziggy2525]

In a short search of this site I have seen plenty of posts saying this gun is great for defense and maybe that one is not so good.

That is well-and-good, but what about how to avoid getting into situations in the first place? Before you need the fight-stopping power of the gun that you have chosen.

Let's assume that you are in a WalMart and you bump into a stranger. Most of the time a simple 'pardon me' will suffice, and there is nothing more to it. What, however, if a simple 'sorry, bud' doesn't' do it? In this case the man is very angry and it looks like it he could come at you any minute.

What is the best thing that you can do here? I'd try walking away.

Or, what if he has you in a position where you can't retreat? Would you do any differently?

How would you defuse or deescalate?

Obviously, if he is bent on robbing me, the D&D angle won't work, but if it's a matter of pride, they might.

So, if this happens, what do you do to avoid the use of deadly force?

I had taken some defensive pistol courses that had deescalation as a component. This was my takeaway (short version anyway)...

Avoidance is best.

Deescalation is part of a response continuum that depends on the severity of the attack.

There are three levels of response.
1 - Talking (deescalation).
2 - Less than lethal response - striking or pepper spray.
3 - Deadly force.

Sometimes they go in order. Sometimes they jump right to a higher level. Sometimes it stops at level one.

It'll vary with each situation, but generally first response if you're still in the talking stage is to move 90 degrees offline (if you can) to make sure there's not a +1 at your back, give yourself a little separation, and put your hands up in a non-aggressive fence. It establishes a personal space barrier and you have your hands up to give you a head start against a sucker punch.

1 - Talking -- Guy is angry, has you "cornered" so you can't just walk away, but not attacking. "Whoa, buddy. Didn't mean to (bump you, take your parking space, wasn't looking at your girl, etc.). Apologies." If guy won't accept your apology and continues "woofing," but not attacking, you may need to increase your surliness -- "Hey, BACK AWAY."

2 - Less than lethal -- Guy is attacking, but not with deadly force. If needed, create some space with violent palm strike to chin, nose, side of jaw followed by pepper spray or some other less than lethal tool.

3 - Deadly force attack -- Guy attacks with deadly force. Create separation and respond with deadly force.

Pretty sure there are some good deescalation examples on YouTube.

My 2 cents. YMMV.

 

[gerhard1]

I had taken some defensive pistol courses that had deescalation as a component. This was my takeaway (short version anyway)...

Avoidance is best.

Deescalation is part of a response continuum that depends on the severity of the attack.

There are three levels of response.
1 - Talking (deescalation).
2 - Less than lethal response - striking or pepper spray.
3 - Deadly force.

Sometimes they go in order. Sometimes they jump right to a higher level. Sometimes it stops at level one.

It'll vary with each situation, but generally first response is to move 90 degrees offline (if you can) to make sure there's not a +1 at your back and put your hands up in a non-aggressive fence. It establishes a personal space barrier and you have your hands up to give you a head start against a sucker punch.

1 - Talking -- Guy is angry, has you "cornered" so you can't just walk away, but not attacking. "Whoa, buddy. Didn't mean to (bump you, take your parking space, wasn't looking at your girl, etc.). Apologies." If guy continues "wolfing," but not attacking, you may need to increase your surliness -- "Hey, BACK AWAY."

2 - Less than lethal -- Guy is attacking, but not with deadly force. If needed, create some space with violent palm strike to chin, nose, side of jaw followed by pepper spray or some other less than lethal tool.

3 - Deadly force attack -- Guy attacks with deadly force. Create separation and respond with deadly force.

Pretty sure there are some good deescalation examples on YouTube.

My 2 cents. YMMV.

Good response and things that I agree with except that I'd avoid the use of profanity.

Another poster here took something from Proverbs, that a soft answer turned away wrath. This usually works.

I'm curious: has anyone here other than first responders had crisis-intervention training? These skills can be quite useful in a confrontation such as were discussing here.

 

[Ziggy2525]

Good response and things that I agree with except that I'd avoid the use of profanity.

Another poster here took something from Proverbs, that a soft answer turned away wrath. This usually works.

I'm curious: has anyone here other than first responders had crisis-intervention training? These skills can be quite useful in a confrontation such as were discussing here.

I wasn't a big fan of the profanity either. The guys I took the defensive pistol courses from were active and retired LEO's. Their experience was if a guy didn't respond to the initial apology and kept woofing, the profanity may be the only thing he's conditioned to respond to.

 

[blues7]

Since every conflict when carrying is a potential armed conflict, every attempt should be made to deescalate or walk away.

Failing that, one must be mindful of using the least force necessary to extricate oneself from a bad situation, with lethal force being the absolute last option.

That said, things can jump from one level to another, (and skip intermediate steps), very quickly, so be prepared...also be prepared to articulate your justification if force is required.

Verbal jiu jitsu is an excellent skill to have in one's arsenal alongside other options.

 

[bigwheelzip]

I avoid, as best as I can, places and situations where confrontation is likely. I do not go to bars. (Don't drink any more.) I NEVER go to house parties. (Too old for that any way.) I avoid trouble-prone areas, especially after dark. I avoid hanging out with jerks, especially jerks who drink too much or otherwise use too much in the way of intoxicants.

That is my M.O. also, but last weeks knife attack murder of an Appalachian Trail hiker was a reminder to keep my guard up.

 

[gerhard1]

That is my M.O. also, but last weeks knife attack murder of an Appalachian Trail hiker was a reminder to keep my guard up.

Indeed. There are no 100% safe places.

 

[jimmyj]

In Walmart your shopping cart is your buffer.
Jimmy's defense:
1. start crying like a little girl
2. begin screaming "RAPE, RAPE"
3. knock the stuffing out of the guy with my purse (pink in color), followed by a wide swing with my cane to his "Nerve Center"
4. If the guy is still upset, I throw my freshly soil depends on him.
5. If all the above fails, I fake a Heart Attack.

*** If I am on a electric shopping cart, #1 is "RUN AWAY"!

 

[tlawler]

In Walmart your shopping cart is your buffer.
Jimmy's defense:
1. start crying like a little girl
2. begin screaming "RAPE, RAPE"
3. knock the stuffing out of the guy with my purse (pink in color), followed by a wide swing with my cane to his "Nerve Center"
4. If the guy is still upset, I throw my freshly soil depends on him.
5. If all the above fails, I fake a Heart Attack.

*** If I am on a electric shopping cart, #1 is "RUN AWAY"!

That cracked me up! Thanks for the laugh, Jimmy.

 

[oneounceload]

In a short search of this site I have seen plenty of posts saying this gun is great for defense and maybe that one is not so good.

That is well-and-good, but what about how to avoid getting into situations in the first place? Before you need the fight-stopping power of the gun that you have chosen.

Let's assume that you are in a WalMart and you bump into a stranger. Most of the time a simple 'pardon me' will suffice, and there is nothing more to it. What, however, if a simple 'sorry, bud' doesn't' do it? In this case the man is very angry and it looks like it he could come at you any minute.

What is the best thing that you can do here? I'd try walking away.

Or, what if he has you in a position where you can't retreat? Would you do any differently?

How would you defuse or deescalate?

Obviously, if he is bent on robbing me, the D&D angle won't work, but if it's a matter of pride, they might.

So, if this happens, what do you do to avoid the use of deadly force?

Stay out of Walmart or any other place where you might run into these folks - like the C store at 2AM

 

[686-380]

I have to be vigilant about my mouth

Since every conflict when carrying is a potential armed conflict, every attempt should be made to deescalate or walk away.

Failing that, one must be mindful of using the least force necessary to extricate oneself from a bad situation, with lethal force being the absolute last option.

That said, things can jump from one level to another, (and skip intermediate steps), very quickly, so be prepared...also be prepared to articulate your justification if force is required.

Verbal jiu jitsu is an excellent skill to have in one's arsenal alongside other options.

I am a very jubilant individual. Once in a great while, some people take offense at my positive vibes. Of course, it's been a very long time since I've had any problems.

I was a camp host for 4 seasons a few years ago. That taught me much about human behavior.

 

[ContinentalOp]

I'm curious: has anyone here other than first responders had crisis-intervention training? These skills can be quite useful in a confrontation such as were discussing here.

Not a LEO, but several years ago I was a criminal justice major and I had the opportunity to view a POST video seminar on Verbal Judo, taught by George Thompson. Very good lecture.

My takeaways, that I still hold onto:

* Never take away someone's dignity. Treat people with respect, don't talk down to them. Once you start using insults or derogatory terms, you increase the risk that the person you're trying to de-escalate will then try to "save face", especially if he's with his buddies, which may escalate the situation.

* Give them a choice. You want them to feel like they're in control, that they're the ones making the decision. I distinctly remember this quote from the video: "Make them do what you want them to do, because they want to do it."

FWIW, I've used this approach when working as a security guard, and it worked in my situations.

I've also read the book, Verbal Judo, by Thompson. A good read for anyone interested in de-escalation and easing confrontations, and is applicable to pretty much all social interactions, not just self defense situations.

Another good read is Gavin DeBecker's Gift of Fear, which covers how to develop your "gut instinct" to help you read, anticipate, and avoid such situations.

I'd also recommend Left of Bang, written by the guys who developed the Marine Corps' Combat Hunter program. They apply those principles to civilians, including how to be aware of your environment, establishing a baseline so you know if something's "off," paying attention to various "signals," etc.

On the topic of profanity...Personally, I try to avoid it. I've heard various LEOs say that sometimes it's the only language some people will understand, but I don't have the experience they have interacting with them, reading them, etc., to make that determination. If you can read someone and can tell that's what's necessary, then it may work. Profanity may also work if you've decided taking a "buddy-buddy" approach is the best route, and use it humorously. At the same time, don't talk like you're in a room full of PhDs from Harvard or the Royal Family. You don't want to talk over or under people. Tricky to do sometimes, especially for introverts like me who are not very socially-gifted.

One final note: De-escalation only works when BOTH parties want to de-escalate. Try de-escalation, but be prepared to ramp up quickly if it doesn't work, whether that's fight or flight.

 

[Ziggy2525]

...
On the topic of profanity...Personally, I try to avoid it. I've heard various LEOs say that sometimes it's the only language some people will understand, but I don't have the experience they have interacting with them, reading them, etc., to make that determination. If you can read someone and can tell that's what's necessary, then it may work. Profanity may also work if you've decided taking a "buddy-buddy" approach is the best route, and use it humorously. At the same time, don't talk like you're in a room full of PhDs from Harvard or the Royal Family. You don't want to talk over or under people. Tricky to do sometimes, especially for introverts like me who are not very socially-gifted.
...

For me, I think the big thing with profanity is to emphasize your point without making it personal.

If you say something like “Hey <profanity>, back away!!!” you’ve personally insulted them. That’s a sure way to start a fight.

If the other person won’t disengage and you say “Hey, back the <profanity> up,” in your best, commanding BAD DOG voice, it’s not a personal insult. It’s a command to move away with some extra emphasis to make your point.

 

[sotexas]

I try to make eye contact when interacting with someone. If my initial apology was would not sufficient, I would probably use voice inflection as needed. Mentally I would prepare for escalation, create space, and try to move the situation to an amicable ending.

 

[gerhard1]

I try to make eye contact when interacting with someone. If my initial apology was would not sufficient, I would probably use voice inflection as needed. Mentally I would prepare for escalation, create space, and try to move the situation to an amicable ending.

Indeed. I'd try to make sure the other person is aware that I know how he feels and that I want for the encounter to end amicably.

One concern that I have with this post is the eye contact part. I have heard that with some people keeping eye contact is seen as a challenge. I think Massad Ayoob brought this up. What does anyone else think?

 

[Ziggy2525]

Indeed. I'd try to make sure the other person is aware that I know how he feels and that I want for the encounter to end amicably.

One concern that I have with this post is the eye contact part. I have heard that with some people keeping eye contact is seen as a challenge. I think Massad Ayoob brought this up. What does anyone else think?

Maybe only very (very) briefly initially and nothing to do with challenging him. I'd want to be able to see his hand and shoulders so I could have a heads up seeing the start of an attack coming.

Isn't it the ASP guy that says "the eyes are the windows to the soul, but the hands are the windows to intent" or something similar

 

[sotexas]

When I made the point of eye contact I was referencing a contact between the individuals. I would look at you in general friendly conversation but I am also aware of what is happening with you and my surroundings. The intent wasn't a stare but more of recognition when I spoke.

 

[lrrifleman]

I have to differ here. Being disabled (2 bad legs and a had arm) rapid flight and hand to hand is out of the question. In public, I feel vulnerable.

Whenever I may violate someone's personal space, I excuse myself in advance. Since I live in a "may issue" state that doesn't, my sole defense is situational awareness, avoidance, then my cane. Most people in stores tend to defer to the disabled.

For the past twelve years, projecting myself as a non-threat has avoided confrontations. When I HAVE to resort to the cane, I am buying time for my kids to get to safety, and I will probably get creamed. In states where I can carry, the sidearm is deployed when she threat is imminent.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

I agree avoidance and deescalation are the best approaches, but I also believe in Being Prepared. I have learned there are a lot of inreasonable people in this world. When I was a kid I a tie-in book to Disney's "20,000 Leagues Under The Sea." There was a scene where Professor Arronax tells Ned Land to give him to to influence Captain Nemo. Ned Land replies:
"Nemo's like a mad dog, Professor. You can't reason or argue with him. You can only muzzle him or shoot him !"
'

 

[amazingflapjack]

Well-if it's Wal-Mart we're talkin' about, there are a few things I do in preparation if I HAVE to go there. I am 6'4" and over 300 LBS-have a full beard and a shaved head, but for Wal-Mart (here in Ocala) I wear a long flowing sheet and a hockey mask as well. No-it's not to look intimidating-not at all. It's just my effort to try and "Blend in" at our local wally world.

 

[WRA]

Good article written by Grant Cunningham. "Not being there is still the best defense."

The best defense is still not being there - www.GrantCunningham.com www.GrantCunningham.com

 

[bigggbbruce]

Defuse and De-escalate.

I just pull my gun wave it around, then fire 2 or 3 warning shots.

I'm usually all alone after that.

 

[wingriderz]

Well-if it's Wal-Mart we're talkin' about there are a few things I do in preparation if I HAVE to go there. I am 6'4" and over 300 LBS-have a full beard and a shaved head, but for Wal-Mart (here in Ocala) I wear a long flowing sheet and a hockey mask as well. No-it's not to look intimidating-not at all. It's just my effort to try and "Blend in" at our local wally world.

Hey was that you running loose in Palatka lol

 

[686-380]

There's making eye contact and there's STARING

When I made the point of eye contact I was referencing a contact between the individuals. I would look at you in general friendly conversation but I am also aware of what is happening with you and my surroundings. The intent wasn't a stare but more of recognition when I spoke.

Indeed, not making eye contact may be perceived as disresrepectful. To others it could be a sign of an easy victim.

One of my planned (last resort) strategies is to give my opponent - at this stage I've admitted to myself conflict is in progress - an unblinking, focused stare to impart malevolence. It is intended to convey a slightly unhinged and "you're going to suffer dire physical harm if you continue" message. Granted, this could backfire but it's a last resort move anyway.

I've moved recently and my perceived threat level has risen slightly. This has been on my mind a bit.

De-escalation is my MUCH preferred option but I've recognized that sometimes, threats find YOU.

 

[Protected One]

I think ContenentalOp said it best when he said:

"One final note: De-escalation only works when BOTH parties want to de-escalate. Try de-escalation, but be prepared to ramp up quickly if it doesn't work, whether that's fight or flight."

At my age, if I try running I'm more likely to trip and fall, make myself winded or some other undesirable result than I am to OUTRUN my attacker. As a result I have adopted the position that my goal is NOT to avoid using lethal force, but rather to avoid great bodily harm or death. This puts the "onus" on the attacker to avoid placing me in a situation where I have to make a decision.

 

[Smoke]

If you really want to learn how to defuse and deescalate go buy a copy of Dale Carnegie's How To Win Friends and Influence People and read it a couple of times a year.

 

[misswired]

I just pull my gun wave it around, then fire 2 or 3 warning shots.

I'm usually all alone after that.

HaHa..... I'm with you and Jimmy, ceiling ventilation while flooring the electric cart