Babalooie
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GatorFarmer
Member
Generally a VFG on a (nominal) handgun makes said handgun into an AOW. But you can contact (variously) the gun's maker, and the ATF to get a definitive statement. (From the ATF, you'll want a letter stating one way or another.)
29aholic
Member
Rifles MUST have a barrel with a minimum of 16" and also must be 26" overall length. Has to be both. Shotguns 18" barrel and 26" overall. AO makes some Thompson "Pistols" with the short barrel but no butt stock and no legal way to put one on.
^^Unfortunately, he's right. Here in the USA we have the moronic 16/26 rule... I wish it'd change to either/or, but not both.
Do NOT go within ten miles of said 10" bbl gun if it has a shoulder stock.
Alpo
Member
If it's a pistol, under 26 inches doesn't matter.
Way back in the long ago (I don't know, maybe ten or fifteen years back) this gun was made as you say. 10 inch barrel, no buttstock, vertical fore-end. It was a pistol. It was okay.
Then ATF decided that a vertical fore-end meant that the gun was "designed" to be fired with two hands, and a "pistol" is designed (by ATF's definition) to be fired with one hand, so it no longer qualified as a pistol.
Kahr still makes the gun, but the new ones come with a horizontal forearm.
Whether the old ones were grandfathered, or are now illegal, I don't know.
Gator Farmer's got it right. Write both Kahr and the ATF. Write. Don't call, don't email. Write, with paper and mail with a stamp. Get a real letter, written on real company and ATF letterhead back.
Or, take the vertical off and put a horizontal on it, and don't worry about it.
Way back in the long ago (I don't know, maybe ten or fifteen years back) this gun was made as you say. 10 inch barrel, no buttstock, vertical fore-end. It was a pistol. It was okay.
Then ATF decided that a vertical fore-end meant that the gun was "designed" to be fired with two hands, and a "pistol" is designed (by ATF's definition) to be fired with one hand, so it no longer qualified as a pistol.
Kahr still makes the gun, but the new ones come with a horizontal forearm.
Whether the old ones were grandfathered, or are now illegal, I don't know.
Gator Farmer's got it right. Write both Kahr and the ATF. Write. Don't call, don't email. Write, with paper and mail with a stamp. Get a real letter, written on real company and ATF letterhead back.
Or, take the vertical off and put a horizontal on it, and don't worry about it.
I had one of the older AO A5s, with the verticle foregrip. I didn't like it, and bought a horizontal grip to replace it. It didn't fit. the grove in the grip wasn't as wide as the metal on the barrel. My grip may have been for a M1 or M1A1, or maybe the semi models are different.
It was manufactured as a 'handgun' by it's maker Auto Ordnance. There was no provision for attachment of the TSM butt stock onto the receiver.
It was and is a .45acp semi auto pistol.
It doesn't make any difference if the bbl is 10" or 13" or....
Plainfield & Iver Johnson made a pistol version of the M1 Carbine.
Pistol grip stock, no provision for a butt stock to fit up to it, short 11" (?) bbl. It's a handgun.
What has been pointed out about the verticle foregrip on the A/O may be the only sticking point.
Also check local and State laws concerning pistols with magazines mounted in front of the grip, compensators/flash supressors, hi-cap mags, etc.
Lots of regs out there.
It was and is a .45acp semi auto pistol.
It doesn't make any difference if the bbl is 10" or 13" or....
Plainfield & Iver Johnson made a pistol version of the M1 Carbine.
Pistol grip stock, no provision for a butt stock to fit up to it, short 11" (?) bbl. It's a handgun.
What has been pointed out about the verticle foregrip on the A/O may be the only sticking point.
Also check local and State laws concerning pistols with magazines mounted in front of the grip, compensators/flash supressors, hi-cap mags, etc.
Lots of regs out there.
Alpo
Member
>Also check local and State laws concerning pistols with magazines mounted in front of the grip, compensators/flash supressors, hi-cap mags, etc.<
Good point. I understand California says that if the magazine is anywhere except in the grip, it is an evil assault weapon, and is illegal. Outlawed broomhandle Mausers and Walther 32 Olympic target pistols.
Does Illinois have any stupid regs like that?
Good point. I understand California says that if the magazine is anywhere except in the grip, it is an evil assault weapon, and is illegal. Outlawed broomhandle Mausers and Walther 32 Olympic target pistols.
Does Illinois have any stupid regs like that?
Moonman
Member
Bobalooie,
Be very careful, ATF technically might have a case of you altering a machine gun or a Firearms Act subject firearm, If they ruled that way about the vertical deal. If the seller does what he does and you took possession of it with a horizontal grip to begin with it might be different.
Get paperwork for ATF opinions and rulings, NOW especially is not the time to even think about what the ATF MIGHT think. You could grow older in jail.
Good luck with your decisions.
Be very careful, ATF technically might have a case of you altering a machine gun or a Firearms Act subject firearm, If they ruled that way about the vertical deal. If the seller does what he does and you took possession of it with a horizontal grip to begin with it might be different.
Get paperwork for ATF opinions and rulings, NOW especially is not the time to even think about what the ATF MIGHT think. You could grow older in jail.
Good luck with your decisions.
Moonman
Member
Good for you.
JcMack
Member
GatorFarmer
Member
Eh. Waffling motion with hand. Being confused with a machine gun isn't the problem. The potential pit fall lays with that - during the period that the VFG was on it - the gun was an AOW, a different type of NFA weapon. What you need to find out is whether the ATF would consider something "once an AOW, always an AOW" or not.
It also depends on whether it left the factory in that configuration or not. If it did, was it originally sold (or supposed to be sold...) as an AOW.
Then there's the matter of the current owner. If he put the VFG on, well then he manufactured an AOW, apparently without the appropriate tax stamp and ATF permission...
See where it can get tricky? You really probably ought see about getting an ATF letter to clarify things.
Moonman
Member
Babalooie,
That's what I was trying to convey yesterday. When things could get tricky, you absolutely don't what to fool with the ATF. They got burned over that Mexican/Arizona gun sting deal and I'm sure some of them are looking to repair their image.
Get things in writing from the ATF and the Manufacturer concerning that Specific Firearm (Serial Number) and who did what/when. Your seller may have unintentionally committed a very serious NO-NO.
In Ohio too big a magazine, over 30 rounds used to be State Classified as a Machine Gun deal. I don't know if that's still true or not. Federal and State laws can both cause you problems.
That's what I was trying to convey yesterday. When things could get tricky, you absolutely don't what to fool with the ATF. They got burned over that Mexican/Arizona gun sting deal and I'm sure some of them are looking to repair their image.
Get things in writing from the ATF and the Manufacturer concerning that Specific Firearm (Serial Number) and who did what/when. Your seller may have unintentionally committed a very serious NO-NO.
In Ohio too big a magazine, over 30 rounds used to be State Classified as a Machine Gun deal. I don't know if that's still true or not. Federal and State laws can both cause you problems.
Moonman
Member
Babalooie,
Your location says that you're near CHI-Town, not the most Gun Friendly of areas.
Your location says that you're near CHI-Town, not the most Gun Friendly of areas.
