Did I buy a Russian or a COPY ?

[corporalgungee]

I am new to old S&W 's so I'm not sure if this is the "real deal' or not . I did some research and found that to the best of my understanding this is what I have comiing to me soon:

S&W no 3 Russian 3rd Model Commerical or New Model Russian Commerical

Trigger Guard looks like one from the earlier Old Old model Russian or Schofield , and not an altered one ???

the checkering pattern reminds me of the type seen on the Russian Nagant revolvers ?

COMMERCIAL REISSUE SERIAL NUMBERS 1-9000 WITH ALTERNATE PATENT DATES – NOT MARKED RUSSIAN MODEL , AND WITH 5 ½ " SHORT BARREL & PINNED FRONT SIGHT & NO TRIGGER GUARD SPUR (special order ?) ; { VERY FEW MADE ; 50% TO 100% PREMIUM ADDED } .

 

[glowe]

Welcome to the Forum. You have an interesting gun, but I am pretty sure it is a copy. Four things catch my eye. First, the 32 line barrel address does not appear on original Model 3 Russians. Next, the top cylinder retaining screw is surface mount, where original Russians were set flush with the top rib. Also, the cylinder flutes are too short, where original cylinder flutes are much longer. Lastly, the lanyard ring is the wrong shape.

I think the copy is very well done. Check the flats on the butt under the stocks for more markings. Also, look at the back of the cylinder for markings. Russians only have an assembly number on the cylinder that will match the inside stamp on the frame, the latch, and the barrel near the latch. The serial number will only be found on the butt and the stock.

 

[cgt4570]

If it's a copy, the attention to detail is much better than any I've seen. Most copies take shortcuts that are more obvious. Yes, as you mention, the grips are not original to any S&W.
Most of the fit and contours follows S&W production. The sideplate fit is better than the copies I've seen (yes, it's been polished throughout its life). I would have to see it in person to know more.

Once you have it in hand, you can look for factory markings. Back side of sideplate, between barrel latch ears, under grips, etc. That should help. You might find some foreign proof marks to help determine where it came from if it turns out to be a copy.

 

[corporalgungee]

the cylinder has the same number as is marked on the butt heel

 

[glowe]

That would not be the case if it were an original S&W Model 3 Russian. Both 2nd and 3rd Models used assembly numbers for all parts that would not match the serial number on the butt.

Still a nicely done copy and these do have some value. Have you tried a 44 Russian cartridge in the chamber? I have a European copy that is chambered in 44-40.

 

[corporalgungee]

I was told that the barrel is actually 5 1/4" long and it is chambered in 44 Russian , as a 44 special goes in most of the way but not fully in , and a 44-40 only goes in a short distance not even half way . The cylinder is 1.441" in length according to the dealer but he states that his other Russians are the same length , so maybe he has bad calipers or just can't read it properly .

 

[glowe]

My original 3rd Model Russian cylinder measures 1.425". My European S&W copy that chambers 44-40 measures 1.58". I would think yours is chambered for 44 Russian which should measure 1.43" OAL.

 

[jleiper]

Definitely a copy. The screws are the wrong size, the cylinder retainer screw is above the top of the frame. Most of all, the frame doesn't the characteristic trigger pin reinforcement bump found on all 2nd and 3rd models. Probably a Belgian copy.

A note: Commercial Russians have assembly numbers, but the Russian contract pieces (except the first 500 1st models) all have full serial numbers on the frame, grip plate, barrel, latch and cylinder. Additionally, very early "American" No. 3s have a cylinder length of 1.450 which was shortened with an improved gas collar for the first Russian contract to 1.423 inches. This length was retained until the end of production of the No. 3 in 1878.
Joe

 

[opoefc]

I'm late to this thread, but can affirm the above opinions - it's a good copy that has been buffed clean at some time past. There's quite probably stamps and markings under the stocks, and elsewhere that will provide clues as to the origin. Are the threads metric? If the seller represented this as a S&W, at a S&W value, I suggest you return it, or seek a substantial reduction in the price if you wish to keep it. It's value to a S&W collector is minimal as a curiosity only. Ed.

 

[corporalgungee]

I'm told that it function well , with tight lockup and decent bore . Any idea as to value , did I give too much @ $825-- where modern Italian copies sell @ $1127-- Cimarron and $1019-- Uberti ?

 

[glowe]

I'm told that it function well , with tight lockup and decent bore . Any idea as to value , did I give too much @ $825-- where modern Italian copies sell @ $1127-- Cimarron and $1019-- Uberti ?

Value is a tough call - the problem with some European copies is that they are not made to the standards of S&W and may not hold up well to much shooting. That said, it has survived to date and is still functioning. Your revolver is worth what you were willing to pay, and personal opinion is that I would not have pay that much. Keep the gun long enough and it will be worth more than you paid.

 

[Camster]

I'm told that it function well , with tight lockup and decent bore . Any idea as to value , did I give too much @ $825-- where modern Italian copies sell @ $1127-- Cimarron and $1019-- Uberti ?

An apples and oranges comparison.What modern,brand new repros,bought primarily as reliable shooters,is of no importance in this valuation.
It should be valued as an antique copy of a Smith,whatever that nebulous value might be,one that might have issues beyond the cosmetics,and built with antique technology/material(zero parts availability),not as a cheaper way of getting a shooter,as compared to the new repros.

 

[corporalgungee]

would it hurt the value to do a top notch profession rust-reblue with all polishing done by hand and re-engrave the markings ? I did a luger (1920 commerical) years ago and it came out great and was very difficult to tell from an original rework. All the lines and edges are straight and sharp and high luster hot blue . Several professionals thought it was top notch too .

 

[Camster]

It wouldn't hurt the value,but I don't see where it's going to help the value either.

 

[opoefc]

Any expense or time polishing and bluing this gun is putting lipstick on a pig, however it's your call. There's certain benefit in experience and fun you can get from a project like this, however it won't add much to the value, as all you will have is a refinished copy vs. an "original" copy. Still a $300 to $350 gun, regardless. $825 is not too much different than a real S&W, in similar condition, would probably cost you. You say" I'm told that it functions well, etc..." Is the seller telling you it's a Smith & Wesson? Ed.

 

[corporalgungee]

he really thought that it was an original and not a copy , and I believe that he was telling me the truth in that reguard and not just passing it off ; it fooled him . I am actually thinking where as it has the S&W roll marks that this really should be called a "fake" instead of a copy ?
I think it would be nice to chase / re-engrave the markings ; this would make it more enjoyable to me . Rather than doing a very nice reblue which is very time consuming ; as that would be as you say and well put , 'putting lipstick on a pig " .

 

[Camster]

No question that it has a coolness factor,but after the opinions expressed thus far,and your continued desire to invest more into it,shall we understand that you don't have the right of inspection?

 

[corporalgungee]

Seller's Description
Guns For Sale - SMITH & WESSON, ANTIQUE, -- MODEL RUSSIAN, NO 3, 44 RUSSIAN, NO FFL

Up for bids is an 1880's vintage SMITH & WESSON, NUMBER 3, NEW MODEL RUSSIAN, six shot, single action, top break chambered in 44 RUSSIAN caliber. This one has matching numbers, 8827. It has seen a lot of use amd looks like a gun that may have gone to Mexico. I have not fired it, but it works fine and locks up pretty tight. The bore is bright with strong rifling and minor freckling. As you can see there is no finish and it does show some cleaning. The walnut grips are checkered and it still has the original butt swivel. This is an ANTIQUE so NO FFL is required. CA sales OK and ships directly to you. I will need the buyer to provide proof of age and a statement that there are no state or local laws barring the purchase. FOREIGN SALES OKAY where allowed with added shipping. Selling with NO RESERVE, please include $20 shipping. AS IS NO RETURNS!!

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/11410189/

 

[corporalgungee]

it came in today and I was shocked ! the barrel rid had been replaced by welding in one from an original S&W , late patent date being 1880 . the work was not even that good . also function is out of kilter , two of the cylinder stop notches need to be rebuilt , as bubba had got into it and made them larger & out of shape . it is also a bit sloopy and slightly out of time . extractor seems to need some attention , as it does not snapback in on it's own .
I tried to call the dealer but got no answer , so left a message . To be safe I ran over to the Bank and put a stop payment on the Money Order , cost $25-- . He tried to call when I was out doing that . I called him back and explained the situation and we agreed to let me keep it for $350-- ; after he offered to take it back . So I'll be sending another Money Order for the $350-- , and have a total of $375-- plus my troubles of repairing it . I think he was fair offering to settle on the deal .

Thanks Gents !

 

[glowe]

A job well done. I like it when both seller and buyer walk away satisfied.