Didn't expect a KaBoom today...

[Rastoff]

All M&P's will fire slightly out of battery. Test it yourself. With an unloaded M&P, pull the slide back slightly, and pull the trigger. The firing pin will drop and seems like it would hit the primer.

Ever done a press check on a Shield? The slide can move a few millimeters without the locking block causing the barrel to tip. It's out of battery, but still lined up with the firing pin.

Neither of these situations is an out-of-battery condition. In order to be out of battery, the chamber and slide must be unlocked. In what is described above, the chamber is still fully locked with the slide.

Is it just me, or is that a very strange looking extractor groove on the three cases on the left? I don't recall seeing extractor grooves cut that way. It has an odd "step" rather than a bevel.

I saw this too. It's a strange case to be sure. I've never seen one like those three before. The one that failed seems to have the same line.

 

[loonybin]

The condition of the cases and variation of headstamps demonstrates that these were reloads. Based on the poor condition of the cases I suspect that these were reloaded by someone who doesn't think Quality or Appearance matters at all as long as they go "bang". Because as a reloader I wouldn't ever load cases that weren't properly cleaned before loading them. Because if you don't clean your cases you won't see tiny cracks that can develop when they have been loaded too many times. Basically what happened here was a tired old case that had been reloaded many many time finally burst. No fault of the pistol and because reloads were being used no warranty coverage for any resulting damage.

The first 3 mags I ran through that box looked just fine, which is why I was a bit surprised to see these in the same box. I have a feeling my boss may have consolidated boxes, as there were other rounds in the box that were nice and clean.

Is it just me, or is that a very strange looking extractor groove on the three cases on the left? I don't recall seeing extractor grooves cut that way. It has an odd "step" rather than a bevel.

They are Winchester cases. Definitely different than the Remington cases, but it's definitely a deliberate step-down.

Throw that ammo out, buy some new quality ammo and go SHOOTIN!

Yeah, I'm going to pull the bullets out of the rounds he gave me and deactivate the primers before tossing the cases. I have other ammo I haven't even opened yet.

Is it me or does it look like there is a crack or separation where I put the red arrow?

I know it has been said already but those rounds pictured are garbage (at least the first 3)

Nope, that's just the case. The groove is too consistent all the way around to be a crack.

Gotta agree with the bad ammo guys on this one...really bad ammo....dispose of any you have left. Never put that kind of ******* in your weapon again........ever....by the way the new Shield 45 has a much nicer trigger (since you mentioned it).

Glad you are ok...stay safe

Fortunately, those were the worst rounds, and the rest didn't look like that. I have "plenty" of other good ammo to shoot (can you ever really have enough?).

 

[Muss Muggins]

Nope, that's just the case. The groove is too consistent all the way around to be a crack.

I think you missed the point. They're not supposed to look like that. Brass looks like it was picked up off the parking lot . . .

 

[Magload]

Looks like the Kaboom I posted a couple weeks ago on the reloading forum. Just as here there was a lot of speculation but the truth is you will never know. My brass was nice a clean and polished. I believe it was a head spacing issue with a bullet set back as it caught on my Gold Cups feed ramp but was still slammed in to battery. Gun survived and face healed and maybe we both learned a lesson. I know a lot of forum members refreshed their safety procedures and were reminded that safety glasses are required. I left a good blood trail on the range floor. I am glad you are ok and suspect the gun is also. it blew my WC mag a part.

 

[jwalts27]

Possibly if they were reloads somebody sized them wrong, Wrong dies maybe? That would explain why it is so uniform all the way around the base. Ive reloaded a boatload of 9mm and never seen a brass case like that before. Or it was something as simple as a double charge.

 

[loonybin]

Dumb question, if nothing is wrong with your gun, why are you sending it in? If you are concerned, have a gunsmith look it over. I agree that it looks like an over pressured round that gave away in the least supported area of the barrel. An old term for this is called Superface. Pretty scary when it happens. I just had one with my Core at a level 2 match in De Soto, KS.

There's nothing visibly wrong with it. I would rather not assume it's OK, only to have it break on me when I need it. There's also no gunsmith up here in Emporia, KS. The closest one I know of is over an hour away, and my opportunities to get out of town during the week are almost nonexistent.

 

[loonybin]

Well, my pistol arrived back home today after only 2 weeks, and as I was expecting, it's fine. Since it is my only carry pistol I wanted to be sure.

As an added bonus, they threw in an extended magazine (obviously used, but still free!).

 

[Culina]

Somebody is going to have to explain to me how a Browning tilt-lock action is going to "fire out of battery" with a centered firing pin strike.

When the gun is out of battery, the barrel is down. By the time any excess case is exposed the firing pin is completely out of line with the primer.

Well, most tilt-locks will slide back a 1/4" or so before the barrel starts to tilt, if your firing pin hits the primer at that point, it will usually ignite while out of battery thus causing problems.

 

[Rastoff]

Well, most tilt-locks will slide back a 1/4" or so before the barrel starts to tilt, if your firing pin hits the primer at that point, it will usually ignite while out of battery thus causing problems.

More like 1/8", but that's irrelevant. As long as the barrel is up, it's in battery.

Even so, there is one way a gun could fire out of battery. A piece of debris could get on the breech face. It could contact the primer prior to being fully in battery.

 

[SuperMan]

Neither of these situations is an out-of-battery condition. In order to be out of battery, the chamber and slide must be unlocked. In what is described above, the chamber is still fully locked with the slide.

Have to disagree...once the slide is pulled back at all the case is no longer properly seated in the chamber causing a headspace issue...therefor the gun is "out of battery"....as in not fully locked up.

I have had a Glock 34 kaboom on me and have been present and looking at the gun as a RO when two other 19s blew, a 23/.40 and 21/.45. One of the 19s was shooting factory Winchester white box ammo and the 23 was also shooting factory rounds... The others were reloads. Glocks will fire out of battery just like Smiths will...

Bob

 

[Rastoff]

Have to disagree...once the slide is pulled back at all the case is no longer properly seated in the chamber causing a headspace issue...therefor the gun is "out of battery"....as in not fully locked up.

OK, let's look at this closer...

What exactly is "in battery" when it comes to firearms? This term is used to indicate that the breech (the rear end of the chamber) and breech face (or breech block) are locked in place. For a gun using a tilt barrel design, this is when the barrel and slide are locked together. This has nothing to do with the position of the slide, though it may seem like it.

So, for the M&P and other guns like it, as long a the barrel is fully up and locked to the slide, it is in battery. The very instant it is not FULLY up and locked with the slide, it is out of battery.

The M&P and most other semi-auto pistols have a little movement of the slide before the barrel starts to unlock (move down) from the slide. When I say a little, it's really a small amount. My M&P45 will move about 1/32"-1/16" before the barrel starts to drop.

I have tested my gun many times. The gun will fire (of course I'm doing this with an empty gun) when the barrel/slide has moved backward, but the barrel is still fully up in the slide. It will not fire the very instant the barrel starts to move down away from the slide. This is how the gun is supposed to work.


As long as the barrel is up, the cartridge is fully seated in the chamber and firing the gun is OK. The breech does not separate from the breech face until the barrel has begun to tilt. You can verify this with your own gun.

 

[jim46ok]

Looks like "yard sale" ammo to me.

Don't be surprised if S&W won't return your gun after they see what that ammo did. Ruger refused to send a rifle back for me once, stating "we will not return a firearm that has been overpressured". Makes sense. They did however offer me a new gun at a discount. I took it.

 

[Funflyer]

OK, let's look at this closer...

What exactly is "in battery" when it comes to firearms? This term is used to indicate that the breech (the rear end of the chamber) and breech face (or breech block) are locked in place. For a gun using a tilt barrel design, this is when the barrel and slide are locked together. This has nothing to do with the position of the slide, though it may seem like it.

So, for the M&P and other guns like it, as long a the barrel is fully up and locked to the slide, it is in battery. The very instant it is not FULLY up and locked with the slide, it is out of battery.

The M&P and most other semi-auto pistols have a little movement of the slide before the barrel starts to unlock (move down) from the slide. When I say a little, it's really a small amount. My M&P45 will move about 1/32"-1/16" before the barrel starts to drop.

I have tested my gun many times. The gun will fire (of course I'm doing this with an empty gun) when the barrel/slide has moved backward, but the barrel is still fully up in the slide. It will not fire the very instant the barrel starts to move down away from the slide. This is how the gun is supposed to work.


As long as the barrel is up, the cartridge is fully seated in the chamber and firing the gun is OK. The breech does not separate from the breech face until the barrel has begun to tilt. You can verify this with your own gun.

This is exactly how my Shield 9 works. Moving the slide with a spent casing in the chamber, you can see the breech face remains in contact with the casing long after the trigger disconnect happens so there's no possible chance of an OOB discharge.

 

[T2C]

First and most important, glad you were not injured.

Second, the brass on the reloaded cartridges in the picture appear corroded, not tarnished. Corrosion near the web of the brass is a dangerous condition. If any of the corrosion appears pink or close to turning pink anywhere on the case, the brass is corroded all the way through.

Is your pistol still serviceable? Can you post pics?

 

[oss117]

The gun was running great, other than the heavy trigger feeling like it has a very tough break point.

Did anyone else catch this? Was the "very heavy trigger" a change from the way your shield normally operates?

 

[T2C]

Did anyone else catch this? Was the "very heavy trigger" a change from the way your shield normally operates?

Do mean like what you would experience when the slide is not in full battery?

 

[oss117]

Do mean like what you would experience when the slide is not in full battery?

Possibly. The description of a very heavy trigger pull, which would not be normal on a shield, makes me wonder if there was a different issue preceding the kaboom.

 

[loonybin]

Looks like "yard sale" ammo to me.

Don't be surprised if S&W won't return your gun after they see what that ammo did. Ruger refused to send a rifle back for me once, stating "we will not return a firearm that has been overpressured". Makes sense. They did however offer me a new gun at a discount. I took it.

Well, they already returned it to me, saying it fired fine for them. As for "yard sale" ammo, who knows. My boss doesn't reload, so I had no reason to think it might be reloads. The Russian berdan-primed milsurp ammo in the box certainly wasn't reloaded (still had the lacquer primer sealer on it) and didn't look much different from the one that blew. There was Winchester, Russian, and Remington in the box, so I figured he just combined partial boxes to conserve space. I do that myself. The box of Magtech rounds he gave me had a lot of dead ones, so it could have been a storage issue.

First and most important, glad you were not injured.

Second, the brass on the reloaded cartridges in the picture appear corroded, not tarnished. Corrosion near the web of the brass is a dangerous condition. If any of the corrosion appears pink or close to turning pink anywhere on the case, the brass is corroded all the way through.

Is your pistol still serviceable? Can you post pics?

There was nothing visibly wrong with the pistol at all. I sent it in to have it checked out because it is my only carry gun. They returned it with a note that it passed their inspection.

Did anyone else catch this? Was the "very heavy trigger" a change from the way your shield normally operates?

Nope. It's just a heavy trigger pull. It hasn't smoothed out. Of course, my frame of reference is a HS2000/Springfield XD, so I may just not be used to the Shield trigger yet. The Shield I rented at the range before buying mine was much smoother, so hopefully mine will smooth out with enough rounds through it. Next spring I will most likely put an Apex trigger kit in it... if I don't trade it for a .45ACP.

Exactly what it looks like to me. I make a point of never shooting reloaded ammo that someone gives or offers to me. You don't know how it was reloaded or how much powder was put in.

I didn't suspect any reloaded ammo. My boss doesn't reload. Had he said he was giving me some reloaded ammo, I would have pulled the bullets to reuse and dumped the powder.