Difference in case gauges.

[flyrobb]

I picked up a Lyman case gauge (the multi caliber one) a while back just to check rounds without having to get my E-Series (.45ACP) out and use the barrel. Worked good and when I would check it against the barrel everything that fit the gauge fit the barrel as well. A light TC seemed to do the trick.

I ran across a Wilson gauge (.45 Auto) on another forum and went ahead a purchased just to compare to the Lyman. What a difference. I pulled out some rounds I loaded and started checking them with the Wilson and 10-12 out of 100 wouldn't fit in the Wilson gauge. Set up my RCBS TC die and found I had to tighten it about 1/2 turn extra to get the round to plunk in the Wilson gauge.

After checking out several other boxes I had loaded it seemed it had as much to do with the brass as anything. Fiocchi to the round wouldn't plunk in the Wilson but did in the Lyman and the E-Series barrel. With mixed brass it was hit or miss depending on the brand. Federal seemed to plunk fine in either gauge.

Seems the E-Series has a pretty loose chamber as well as the Lyman gauge. I was really surprised how much tighter the Wilson gauge is than the Lyman.

I think that explains why some rounds I loaded and shot through my brothers Sig wouldn't chamber but shot fine in my E-Series. I would assume it's the brass thickness that is making the difference.

So...would it make sense to crimp rounds to fit the Wilson gauge even though I don't really need quite that much crimp to function in my E-Series? Also wouldn't it lessen the need to sort brass?

 

[BLUEDOT37]

I've never used a case gage & have always used my gun's barrel to set the OAL" for a specific bullet loaded. I've never noticed case brand making a difference, & I have at least (5) different brands I reload in 45ACP.

Any flare/bell-mouth should be removed from all rounds, irregardless of brand. Case length plays a difference especially when you're trying to put on a minimal taper crimp (shorter get less & longer get more). Ideally I like to have about .002" taper crimp at the case mouth (~.470").

Bullet seating depth OAL", not taper crimp, should be the main factor in passing the plunk test in your gun's barrel. I suggest you uniformly crimp all cases & if they pass in your gun's chamber, call it good.

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[BLUEDOT37]

I think that explains why some rounds I loaded and shot through my brothers Sig wouldn't chamber but shot fine in my E-Series.

No, it's the leade in the barrel (between the chamber & rifling) that is main factor why a round will plunk in one gun fine but not another. My Colt Govt 1911 Series 70 has a very short leade (~.037") while my S&W 3rd Gens (4516, 4586) have a more generous leade (~.112"). Rounds that pass plunk in them usually need to be seated deeper for them to pass plunk in the 1911.

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[fredj338]

I have several diff 45acp. I load ammo to fit the worst case pistol, works in All the rest. It could be the leade, but if it is specific brass, its likely a tight chamber. Deoending on what bullet, brass thickness vertainly can make a diff.

 

[rwsmith]

Same problem....

All of my 9mm chambers are different and between the brass and the short leades. To fit all I tend to load my rounds shorter because one will plunk in one barrel and another will get the bullet grabbed by the rifling, not chamber fully, then be the devil to extract. (Keep a cleaning rod handy) I have 5 guns that are in 9mm and I'm getting where I have less plunking rejects.

Another thing I found was that loading lead bullets takes more flare than a jacketed bullet. It would shave ever so slightly, just enough to make an almost invisible ring around the mouth of the case and wouldn't plunk well. A thumbnail will barely get it off.

 

[Wise_A]

Case gauges are a weird thing. I would feel funny telling somebody they didn't need one, but I so rarely use mine (Wilson).

I also load using my SA 1911's removed barrel as a guide. Precisely loaded to that, it functions in everything. When I want to get down to the nitty-gritty, I repeat the process on whatever gun I'm loading for.

After checking out several other boxes I had loaded it seemed it had as much to do with the brass as anything. Fiocchi to the round wouldn't plunk in the Wilson but did in the Lyman and the E-Series barrel. With mixed brass it was hit or miss depending on the brand. Federal seemed to plunk fine in either gauge.

Ever hear the expression, "Crimp is case length-sensitive"?

Longer cases protrude deeper into the die than shorter cases. That means that the longer a case is, the more it bells, and the tighter it crimps. Usually not enough to affect reliability--but sometimes, if your other settings are right on the edge of functionality--but definitely enough to affect accuracy at the 25 or 50-yard line.

That's why volume precision shooters sort along two lines: number of uses, and length. Cases that have been used more are stretched and made brittle to varying degrees, resulting in inconsistency between shots. Same deal with length. So for matches, or more demanding stages in matches, they might use factory fresh or verified once-fired cases, sorted by length.

 

[flyrobb]

After buying the Wilson and seeing the difference between it and the Lyman I can see why gauges are hit or miss and the barrel is the best way to check for plunk. I will say the Lyman gauge is VERY close to my E-Series where the Wilson is way tighter. Rounds that won't plunk in the Wilson gauge will easily plunk in either the Lyman or my barrel. If I get the Dan Wesson I have my eye on I'm guessing that will change.

In 9mm I shoot either a G19 or 3913, both of which seem to have generous chambers and have never had issues. My hand loads will function fine in either.

I bought the Wilson out of curiosity and after using it and posting this thread have learned much. A lot of things I would never have considered. As always, good stuff!

 

[flyrobb]

No, it's the leade in the barrel (between the chamber & rifling) that is main factor why a round will plunk in one gun fine but not another. My Colt Govt 1911 Series 70 has a very short leade (~.037") while my S&W 3rd Gens (4516, 4586) have a more generous leade (~.112"). Rounds that pass plunk in them usually need to be seated deeper for them to pass plunk in the 1911.

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How do you know these measurements?

 

[BLUEDOT37]

How do you know these measurements?

I use my pin gage set to check all my "new" gun's different dimensions. When checking the chamber's dimensions (diameter), breach to muzzle, & throats/leade, I use them to determine the leade by using two correctly sized pin gages, when inserted to the appropriate chamber's points, then calculate (subtract) the difference between the two depths that they extend into the corresponding chamber points.

Essentially the distance between the chamber ledge & the start of the rifling.

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From Hornady's webpage, Internal Ballistics:
The section ahead of the chamber, just before the rifling starts, is called the "leade", throat, or "freebore" and is really the bore of the barrel with the rifling reamed away.

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[bwelch47]

Wilson gauges usually come in two sizes. One gauge measures the minimum size that case should be while the other gauge measures the maximum size the case should be. The Lyman guage usually measures the maximum size of the case. It sounds like the Wilson guage you have is measuring only the minimum size. The Wilson gauges were used for many years by people competing in target competation.

 

[H Richard]

I don't know how I ever reloaded and shot in competition for 35+ years and not used a case gauge. I always made due with a dial caliper to set up my press & dies. I go by the reloading manual specs, and they fit any of my firearms. I have 4 1911's and two revolvers in 45 acp, no problem with any. A S&W shield, Ruger LC9s, a S&W 469, and a S&W 940 and all the 9mm fit all the guns. I have 19 different 38's, and all use the same ammo. Same with all the other calibers. Follow the specs in the reloading manual.

 

[flyrobb]

I don't know how I ever reloaded and shot in competition for 35+ years and not used a case gauge. I always made due with a dial caliper to set up my press & dies. I go by the reloading manual specs, and they fit any of my firearms. I have 4 1911's and two revolvers in 45 acp, no problem with any. A S&W shield, Ruger LC9s, a S&W 469, and a S&W 940 and all the 9mm fit all the guns. I have 19 different 38's, and all use the same ammo. Same with all the other calibers. Follow the specs in the reloading manual.

I hear what you're saying. I feel like I have a pretty good handle hand loading for the short time I've been into it but I see these goodies and can't help myself.

I'd imagine one day I'll be selling some of this stuff to someone like me.

 

[flyrobb]

Wilson gauges usually come in two sizes. One gauge measures the minimum size that case should be while the other gauge measures the maximum size the case should be. The Lyman guage usually measures the maximum size of the case. It sounds like the Wilson guage you have is measuring only the minimum size. The Wilson gauges were used for many years by people competing in target competation.

Actually the Wilson Gauge is a MAX spec gauge and the Lyman Ammo Check is a MIN spec gauge. Seems backwards to me. As I said, the Wilson is much tighter that the Lyman.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

If you're reloading using components (bullets) that are not listed in reloading guides then using your barrel to verify the seated OAL" works in your gun is wise.

If you're loading light loads with dense/fine powders (& light weight bullets) then seating the bullets deep, to accomondate any chamber, has less impact but if you're loading full power loads, especially with less dense/flake powders (& heavy bullets that naturally have to be seated deeper) I like to seat the bullets as shallow as my gun will allow (pass plunk test), without exceeding the SAAMI max. OAL" for that cartridge.

That's what determines the OAL" for me in auto cartridges. Once you determine that OAL" record the reading & use it next time you use those components & forego the plunk test.

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[Moe Mentum]

I use the Lyman case and head space gauge for my .223/5.56 reloads. I can tell if it will head space, and the length at the same time. I like it.

 

[Collo Rosso]

I have Wilson rifle case gauges and Dillon pistol case gauges. I only have the gauges in pistol for semi-auto's. Revolvers head space on the rims and O.A.L. is all that really matters.
I can use the case gauge after sizing/de-priming to check if it sized properly, the rim isn't twisted (I find this on many times loaded 45acp) and if the case is to long. A long case will not go flush to the edge of the case gauge.
I can use the gauge again after completing a cartridge (plop test) to check for case bulge, crimp, O.A.L. (bullet doesn't protrude past the gauge) and general fit in a chamber.
What the case gauge doesn't do is check the throat (what some here are calling lead) of your particular barrel. The throat is (don't know if this is official terminology) the distance from where the cartridge head spaces (rim mouth on a semi-auto) to where your rifling begins. This space varies and can and will cause problems.
9mm bullets I have now on the shelf are Xtreme 124gr. plated and MBC 124gr. mini-ball coated. Sit them next to each other and the Xtreme is a longer bullet. Because of the more tapered profile of the Xtreme bullets (ogive) I can load them to 1.117" O.A.L. (max 9x19 O.A.L.) and they will chamber fine in all my 9mm's. The MBC have a short, very rounded profile and I have to load them to 1.105". If I don't and chamber them in my S.A. 9mm 1911 the slide won't go into battery because the bullet has hit the rifling, stopping the slide. That 1911 has a short throat.
Sorry to be so long winded but this is something that caught me out when I started reloading and wished somebody would have explained it to me.

 

[flyrobb]

I have Wilson rifle case gauges and Dillon pistol case gauges. I only have the gauges in pistol for semi-auto's. Revolvers head space on the rims and O.A.L. is all that really matters.
I can use the case gauge after sizing/de-priming to check if it sized properly, the rim isn't twisted (I find this on many times loaded 45acp) and if the case is to long. A long case will not go flush to the edge of the case gauge.
I can use the gauge again after completing a cartridge (plop test) to check for case bulge, crimp, O.A.L. (bullet doesn't protrude past the gauge) and general fit in a chamber.
What the case gauge doesn't do is check the throat (what some here are calling lead) of your particular barrel. The throat is (don't know if this is official terminology) the distance from where the cartridge head spaces (rim mouth on a semi-auto) to where your rifling begins. This space varies and can and will cause problems.
9mm bullets I have now on the shelf are Xtreme 124gr. plated and MBC 124gr. mini-ball coated. Sit them next to each other and the Xtreme is a longer bullet. Because of the more tapered profile of the Xtreme bullets (ogive) I can load them to 1.117" O.A.L. (max 9x19 O.A.L.) and they will chamber fine in all my 9mm's. The MBC have a short, very rounded profile and I have to load them to 1.105". If I don't and chamber them in my S.A. 9mm 1911 the slide won't go into battery because the bullet has hit the rifling, stopping the slide. That 1911 has a short throat.
Sorry to be so long winded but this is something that caught me out when I started reloading and wished somebody would have explained it to me.

I don't mind the long winded posts, lots of great info, thanks! I can see some value to the case gauges.

The twisted rim comment caught my attention as well. I noticed a factory round will plunk in the gauge either direction where many of my reloads would plunk fine nose first but not rim first. I would check the rim and not necessary visually see anything wrong not thinking the rim would be twisted or out of round.

 

[rwsmith]

I have a Kel tec....

... a Shield, a 5943, a Taurus and carbine all in 9mm. Two of these are compact pistols. The difference in the chambers is like night and day. I could make it simpler by loading all FMJ bullets which have a kind taper and don't get caught in the rifling, but I shoot a lot and I'd rather shoot coated lead. Revolver cartridges are a piece of cake compared to these.

 

[Svashtar]

Actually the Wilson Gauge is a MAX spec gauge and the Lyman Ammo Check is a MIN spec gauge. Seems backwards to me. As I said, the Wilson is much tighter that the Lyman.

Sorry to resurrect a 5 month old thread!, especially as a forum newbie, but this statement is apples and oranges so to speak. You're right, they are MAX and MIN, but not for the same thing.

The excellent Wilson is a bit unique in that it is a MAX _cartridge_ case gauge, while the Dillon, Lyman, and EGW gauges are MIN _chamber_ gauges, so the Wilson's will always be tighter. For whatever reason I ended up with a pile of Dillon gauges for semi-auto rounds when I got my RL550B years ago, but got Wilson MAX pistol gauges for all my revolver rounds. Saves having to plunk test in the barrels or cylinders, and with the tighter Wilson's anyway you'll know they'll fit pretty much any firearm in that caliber.

The Dillon's are stainless and won't rust like the Wilson's, and are very well made, but it's more common (while still being super rare), for a round to make it thru the Dillon gauge but not want to chamber fully in a tighter match barrel. Usually this happens with brass fired through a Glock, and I think that the Lee Factory Crimp die will solve 99.9% of those problems. Some folks go a step further with .40 and use a bulge buster kit, but just the FCD has worked fine there for me.

I like having the gauges to be able to check rounds from time to time, but if I'm just shooting out of a couple of familiar pistols and using the Lee FCD (the only non-Dillon item on the 550), I usually don't bother to gauge check each round anymore. Exceptions are if I'm going to a school or a match then everything gets checked.

This kind of indicates that the Dillon gauges are more limited utility, but if you have a standard barrel then having a gauge that verifies the minimum SAAMI chamber spec of a loaded round for you is a good thing; that's also what the orange Lyman ammo checker, and black EGW chamber checkers do for you.

Again, sorry to dredge up an old topic, but I didn't see this question completely addressed in the thread here. There's a lot of confusion out there about what the different rifle/pistol case length / trim length / cartridge headspace / chamber - ammo checker gauges actually measure. Best, Norm