Do You Completely Trust Semi-Auto Pistols?

I don't "completely" trust any mechanical device - firearms, pickup trucks, chain saws. That said, I have several handguns with a 99.9 confidence interval, Glock 19, S&W Shield, S&W Combat Masterpiece.

I have a pair of Ruger Vaqueros that saw many thousands of live rounds in Cowboy Action and many more thousands of dry fire. Both revolvers failed with a week when a tiny spring in the hammer assembly broke. Took research to figure out what happened, a week to get the correct springs, and a complete disassembly for installation. Up to this incident I would have bet serious money on Ruger's bombproof reputation.

I practice malfunction clearances with my semi autos.
 
I'm a revolver guy , through and through and so is my sister , and my fiance . This is just some of the reasons why ?
When you rave about your glocks I always remember a conversation I had with a Border Patrol Agent a few years ago . He was carrying an HK 40 . Told me they had been issued glock the year before and had to quit them . In an extended firing session , the magazine would melt into the grip . He said they would end up using screwdrivers and pocket knives trying to remove them . They literally ripped the mag to shreds . While at the gun range shooting my very reliable revolvers I have noticed semi auto's having trouble , being very very finicky about ammunition . Never had that problem with my revolvers . I have noticed , over the years many LEO's carrying a snub revolver as their " back up gun " . Now that should tell you something !
I will take reliability over capacity , every time .
 
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cowboy4evr said:
I'm a revolver guy , through and through and so is my sister , and my fiance . When you rave about your glocks I always remember a conversation I had with a Border Patrol Agent a few years ago . He was carrying an HK 40 . Told me they had been issued glock the year before and had to quit them . In an extended firing session , the magazine would melt into the grip . He said they would end up using screwdrivers and pocket knives trying to remove them . They literally ripped the mag to shreds .
I will take reliability over capacity , every time .
Click to expand...

Yea thats BS. Sorry. The border patrol went from revolvers to Beretta to HK. Up until 1994 the BP were allowed to pick from an approved list for PERSONAL USE. One of those was Glock, either 19 or 17. But they were ISSUED either a S&W or Ruger 357 mag. After 1995 they were issued Beretta 96D. In 2006 they changed to HK P2000. At no time were they issued a Glock. No Glock was ever used. And if they were even brought in for testing the mags still didn't melt. Glock uses the same magazine in their full auto handguns. The mag hold between 17 and 33 rounds (depending on the mag). Each mag is emptied in seconds .....remember full auto.... So 1st there isn't time for the mag to melt to the inside and 2nd it has never happened on full auto guns when people empty thousands of rounds in minutes but somehow they all melted on semi auto shooting. Your buddy is either making it up because he has some hangup with Glock or he's repeating an old story that probably changed with each retelling


Look ma!! No melting 298 rounds in 1 min
Glock 18 Full Auto - 298 rounds - YouTube


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Arik said:
Comparing the one Hipower to all semi autos is like me saying I had a Dodge Diplomat that gave me problems so I don't trust cars

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MORE like saying I had a Rolls Royce that gave me problems so I don't trust cars ;)
 
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I've had 4 different revolvers break parts on the range. A J, 2 K's and a Python (couple times with it but it had a stupid number of rounds through it). The K's were used and had an unknown number of rounds through them, the J a brand new one with the lock, well under 500 rounds. In all cases there was no getting them running that day. Anything mechanical can fail; pick your poison. I've had just about all autos I've owned jam at some point, some were gun problems but if the gun had enough history to be reliable and then jammed it almost always was a problem with my reloads. Magazines can also be an issue. I can't ever remember an auto not being able to get back running quickly.
 
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My personal protection pistols are Sig's and so far I have never had a FTF or FTE from any of them.
 
DocB said:
Not the plastic ones. A few days in a hot car can cause some parts to sort of melt. . .or so they say. You can tell I'm not a big fan of semi-autos and definitely not a fan of plastic ones. Although, here's a few that were trusted by a lot men during WWII.
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Well Doc, if the plastic pistols melt in a hot car don't you think all of the car's plastic interior pieces would also be melted? :D
 
My 539,bought new in 1983, never malfunctioned in my hands.
I let a Lady friend shoot it and had FTEs.. attributed to limp wristing.
Once she began locking her wrist it shot fine.
Not an indictment of autos, just an objective note. She might feel safer with a revolver in that case.
Jim
 
Arik ,
The agent did say he actually felt the glock was slightly more accurate than the HK .
It might of been just a test of the glock in very adverse conditions , this I don't know sure . Southern Arizona , right next to the mexican border can be very hard on weapons . The high heat , blowing sand and alkali dust and the ever present threat of flash floods , ( when it does rain ) . I ought to know because I lived there for just short of 60yrs .
I appreciated your posting , discussion is always good , whether we agree or disagree .
 
Anything made of more parts than an anvil is subject to malfunction and failure! There are so many variables involved in the answer to the question of firearm reliability. But any firearm that has been fired enough to establish that it is functioning properly with good quality ammo can be trusted as much as any can be trusted to give reliable service. Even if I have a perfectly functional firearm, and even if I am firing well known good quality ammo, that ammo can be found to have a round in the box that is not perfectly constructed or loaded. Even a perfectly reliable firearm, if used at all, will eventually require springs or other parts to be replaced to maintain that level of reliability. Every firearm must be maintained and lubricated properly to maintain that reliability. We haven't even talked about the operator induced problems that can result in a problem. All of us are subject at some point or other to limp wristing or failure to take a proper grip to allow the recoil process to have it's best chance to function as intended. I carried revolvers for a great many years as an LEO. I was an instructor each year in the departments academy and was a district rangemaster as well where many thousands of rounds were fired. There were problems. The greatest majority of those were operator induced or caused by sloppy maintenance. Yes, there are examples of any brand that just flat do not work, either from the get go or after some period of time of use. But the great majority function as intended unless they are treated poorly and not well maintained, and IF good quality ammo is used. Even with well known good quality ammo, I maintain the practice of using a simple well made cartridge case gauge to test each round in the box before I load them up in my EDC carry mags or spare round carriers. Even the practice or range ammo that I use is inspected visually and by feel to make sure there are no high primers or buggered cases or improperly seated bullets before use.

If I had a quarter for every time I've known of someone going to the LGS and buying a new or new used firearm and a box of the cheapest ammo on the shelf and retiring immediately to the range, loading up, and attempting to blast away and then complained because the piece of excrement they bought did not function well without problems, then I could buy us all lunch! It is, in fact, surprising how many times this happens and the gun and ammo function reliably! Every firearm will likely function much better after it has been fired a few hundred rounds to allow everything to settle into place and smooth up. I always clean and properly lube my firearms before going to test fire them. I test them for function first. I also always fully load my semi auto mags and lock the slide back on them and put them on the shelf for about 72 hours in that condition before going to the first test firing. That helps the springs to begin to take their initial set before firing and significantly reduces the likelihood of "new gun" related malfunctions. Yes, I've had a very few semi autos that had some problems out of the box, but most could be resolved fairly easily. I've also experienced my own operator induced failures. But I also prepare to deal with common failures to function because it can happen at any time. I only buy known and expected good quality firearms from companies that stand behind their products. I like to buy a good gun for small money as well as anyone, but I also know that a too cheap gun is usually cheap for a reason. I don't let the price point be my criteria for a gun that my life depends on!!! PERIOD!! And I have found that just because I find a particular brand of quality firearm that has real and serious problems means that that brand is not to be trusted across the board. One other thing ... if I find that I'm having problems with most of the brands and models of the same style of firearm, maybe the problem is with me instead of the firearms. All the variables have to be recognized and sorted out to determine what is necessary to rectify the situation.

Most of the negative issues folks have with their blasters are highly and hotly reported and debated. But the very large majority of those who purchase the same guns find they function as reasonably expected, and we don't hear from all of those folks. If I do have problems with a firearm, with every brand of ammo shoot in it, and I really want to keep it, then I attempt to resolve the problems and I don't move it into my carry rotation until it shoots well enough and reliably enough to satisfy my own standards of reliability. A single instance of a problem is not enough to destroy my faith in that firearm, but I shoot it enough to establish that it is not likely to happen again. Certain brands of ammo I will NOT buy again! But any brand can have a problem. Same thing holds true with the brands of firearms. I want my experience with failures to be a VERY SMALL percentage of the rounds I've fired through it. No failures does not mean that at some point in time I won't have one. Stuff happens!! We have to deal with that stuff, and we each have to determine whether we are willing to accept the possibilities for any mechanical object.

Sorry for the long winded post, maybe even a rant, but it seems to me that sometimes our expectations exceed the reality of life. Nothing wrong with wanting things to be as good as they can possibly be, but there ain't nothing perfect in my experience with mechanical things! Thanks for listening.
 
cowboy4evr said:
Arik ,
The agent did say he actually felt the glock was slightly more accurate than the HK .
It might of been just a test of the glock in very adverse conditions , this I don't know sure . Southern Arizona , right next to the mexican border can be very hard on weapons . The high heat , blowing sand and alkali dust and the ever present threat of flash floods , ( when it does rain ) . I ought to know because I lived there for just short of 60yrs .
I appreciated your posting , discussion is always good , whether we agree or disagree .
Click to expand...

Glocks are also used in Florida, Taxes, S. America, Israel, Middle East, (Pakistan, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Yemen) Africa, India, Indonesia, Australia, .... So many countries with heat and or sand. No one has ever had this issue. You friend is the only one who had mags melt from shooting semi auto. The only thing I can think of is IF he brought his own gun AND had some very cheap aftermarket mags. Even then I've never heard or seen an aftermarket mag melt inside a gun.

He could have been more accurate with the glock. Different guns fit different people better/worse. The HK is 40s&w and the Glock would have been 9mm assuming he brought his Glock that was on the approved list.

I'm not trying to sound like a fan boy it's just that the story is completely made up, either by him or someone who told it to him.

I've been searching to find anything even close to this claim and all I got was a video trying to see how many rounds it would take to melt a Glock. Close to a 1000 rounds of sustained fire, fired in full auto, in roughly 2 minutes got the guide rod to melt and the front of the frame to droop just a hair. Dispite this the gun didn't stop and zero mags were melted

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Every handgun I have has broken something at some point in its life . . . except for the two Tauruses (a revolver and a semi) and the Ruger LC9s. The Ruger and the Taurus revolver are new this year, so that is to be expected. The Taurus semi has a **** ton of rounds through it and it just keeps humming along. It's not my favorite pistol, but it has been bulletproof so far. Yes, pun was intended.

Having said that . . . Between my son and I we put a lot of lead downrange, and eventually they will all break something. That's just the way of things mechanical.
 
I take for granted that your platform, whatever you choose, works perfectly, everytime. The one thing out of your control is the ammo in the gun. If it is new, old, reloads, whatever, that is where the problem CAN arise. The loudest sound in the world is CLICK! Now is when everybody says..Well you practice malfunction drills! You know like Tap Rack Bang. Well if you carry a DA revolver and you hear CLICK, you can eliminate 2 of those proceedures..Tap and Rack.
 
However...

As some of us have pointed out, both semi-autos and revolvers can fail, even with proper maintenance. The difference is, that with practiced immediate action drills, most semi-autos can be cleared and get back into the fray. When a revolver lays down, they are not so easily returned to functioning and it's best to reach for a BUG if you have one.
 
This is kinda a hard question to answer. As others have already said, NO gun is 100% reliable 100% of the time. Most are close, some are 99.5% reliable over thousands of rounds fired......... but no mechanical device is an absolute sure bet 100% of the time. Parts wear, springs get weaker over time, some guns and ammo are made or inspected by disgruntled employees on a Friday afternoon, tolerances vary from one end of the "ok" range to the other end, etc.

Revolvers have less moving parts, so they're inherently more reliable. Also, a bad round will only affect 1 pull of the trigger, if it clicks all you have to do is pull the trigger again. It will very very likely go bang.

If a semi auto clicks and you have to burst into a sudden fit of smacking the magazine, racking the slide, looking into the chamber, shaking the old round out, etc......

With that being said, a quality firearm that has been properly cleaned, lubed, and inspected from time to time......with a quality brand, clean, magazine..... and quality ammunition should be very very close to 100% reliable.
 
Trust

Flattop5 said:
Am I the only one who has a hard time trusting the reliability of semi-auto pistols?

I used to keep a 9mm Browning Hi-Power (made in 1972) as a bedside gun. No more. I had confidence in that gun until, one day, it choked on me twice during a firing range session (I had 2 failures to fully eject), even though I always kept the gun clean and lubed, and I always used fresh, good quality, factory ammo.

Am I the only one who has qualms about the reliability of semi-autos for defense?


------------------
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No! I don't 100% trust any firearm, be it semi-auto, or revolver. But, the semi-auto pistol that I put the most trust in, and use the most, is my little L. W. Seacamp .32. For it's reputation for reliability, and being able to conceal it. I will give it about 99% of my trust, and use 99% of the time for EDCC. This subject will cause one to do like the old timers were depicted doing, when they had any spare time to kill, they maintained their firearms. That is a very good habit to follow. I have had countless failures of semi-autos, and only three or four ammo. related failures to fire with a revolver. There might be a message in that fact, if one was looking. Still, I rely on the semi-autos for about half of my handgun use.
Chubbo
 
NCW Ray said:
Well Doc, if the plastic pistols melt in a hot car don't you think all of the car's plastic interior pieces would also be melted? :D
Click to expand...

Melt might be the wrong word, I believe the reason my plastic sights and mag button came off the steel parts was differences in thermal expansion and a slight softening of the plastic. I have had plastic auto interior parts crack in extreme cold weather.
 
Any Gun can have problems. I prefer Revolvers. That's all I carry. I may shoot a semi auto at times but, not lately.
 
Magazine Springs Weakening

RG686 said:
Mechanically, there is more to go wrong with an auto than a revolver. However, if something does go wrong with a revolver it's more likely to be catastrophic, i.e., explode in your hand. With an auto, in an emergency situation you have to consider, is there a round in the chamber? Is the magazine properly seated, or in my haste to get the gun out did I accidentally hit the mag eject button? Does it have a safety, is that on? Will it feed the next round, or eject the spent case properly? Lot's of moving parts and at any time one of them can go a little awry and cause an issue. A revolver, in an emergency situation, is simple, pull the trigger and as long as the cylinder aligns with the barrel and the hammer strikes the the primer, it will go bang. Both of those issues are ones you can determine well in advance of when you need the gun to work if they will be a problem.

All that said, today's autos at least are generally excellent and reliable. I've had most of the issues I described happen to my Glock when practicing with it (except for the safety, it doesn't have one), but if I were to need it I feel I can rely on it. One other thing to consider is if you want a gun that will sit loaded for months at a time, then if it's an auto you'll at least need to pull the bullets out of the magazine periodically, switch out with another mag. Leaving them in the mag for extended times can affect the spring, and that can lead to feed problems. So for sure, if it's a gun that just sits in a drawer for months on end, and you don't want to pay any attention to it, then a revolver is better option for that reason if no other. But if it's a carry weapon that you will handle regularly, take to the range and clean it periodically, keep it maintained, then an auto is a perfectly fine option, despite all that I've pointed out.
Click to expand...
Its been so many-years ago___maybe fifty! But an army MP company all put loaded magazines (Model 1911) and locked them up. A year later returned and put those magazines in their pistols and fired them with out a single problem.
All quality springs (Not just weapons) will be fine for a long time.
As for trusting a semi-auto___How about my M1 rifle in the marines?
A quality semi-auto properly maintained you can__and I do__trust my life on.
Years ago, 38 spl mandated__likely during a scuffle on the streets
(I'm retired cop) I must have gotten a dink on the cylinder of my revolver. Luckily, it was on the police range I found the cylinder would not rotate after the second shot.
Revolvers and pistols are mechanical things__ it can and may well happen.
Keep'em inspected, checked (again) and lubed. We make some great firearms in America. (Check those buried Brits/ 1776)
I trust my two Shields and my made in NH Sig P320.
This kind of discussion will continue forever.
Poli Viejo
 
If we all suddenly agreed that neither platform was better or worse than the other, that would still leave us with the DUD ROUND. If all systems work perfectly and you have a dud, which then would you rather have? A tap, rack, bang or just a BANG? We have had lots of folks here that have been successful in gun fights. None can do a T,R,B as quick as someone pulling a DA revolver again. Seems like just that has to count for something. Forget the mechanics and concentrate on having to come up with a life saving shot in tenths or hundredths of a second. I have never seen anybody that could, under timing, clear a bad round as fast as pulling a DA trigger. This is multiplied when the gun requires being racked again just to be able to fire. At least a DA/SA auto will give you another whack at the dud. Striker fired guns, not so. Just something to think about. I have a few hundred shooters that will readily concede a DA or DA/SA is better for surviving a bad round. We have a Folger's coffee can 2/3 full of ammo that did not go bang on my range. If you shoot a lot, you see it a lot.
 
cowboy4evr said:
In an extended firing session , the magazine would melt into the grip . He said they would end up using screwdrivers and pocket knives trying to remove them . They literally ripped the mag to shreds.
Click to expand...

:rolleyes:

If the grip was hot enough to melt were they holding them with asbestos gloves? I mean how did they keep from scorching their hands while firing?

Enquiring minds and all that.
 
Now this was an interesting thread. I read it all with great interest. Both sides have interesting observations, and a lot of it is fact, experience and personal stories, except the magazine melting in the grip and the screw driver story. Cowboy4evr that was one funny story. That was right out of ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, CNN newsrooms.
I have had a few failures with my revolvers only because I was testing different hot loads. Primer bulges, split cases and dirt build up.
After that I settled on my favorite loads and have never had a problem with any of my revolvers. Half the time I carry my trusty S&W 686-4 2.5 inch 7 shooter. It is one of the most reliable guns from the stable.
My Colt Defender is my primary carry. Only problem I had was with the shell extractor, so I had it fixed.
If I had to run out of the house and not go back ever it would be my S&W 686...or my TRP... maybe my Glock. No the 686 6"... TRP, Glock, ....... and so it goes with us gun owners.... my AK for sure. AR...
 
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As someone who used to work on revolvers (and still do very, very occasionally) I'm always amazed at their reputation for being simple. The action of a double action revolver is actually quite complex.

When the trigger starts to move, the trigger needs to lower the cylinder stop so the cylinder will rotate, it also needs to release the cylinder stop at the correct time to stop the cylinders rotation. The trigger also causes the hand to lift, rotating the cylinder and the hammer to start going back. The hand needs to lock the cylinder into alignment with the barrel and hold it there while the hammer is released and falls. Then, the trigger and hammer must return to allow the whole process to repeat.

In short, if you have an issue with a revolver, there are only a couple of fast fixes: a yank on the hammer spur may release a cylinder locked by primer flow and whacking the ejector rod on something may eject a stuck case. Beyond that, if your armorer doesn't make house calls, you gots problems.

Yes, I do have a story about how a ~70 year old revolver and 30 year old ammo saved someone, but intervention by a higher power was obviously involved when all the circumstances are considered. I've got more stories the other way.

By comparison, the auto pistol is the next best thing to a stone axe. The common stoppages can be readily cleared by the user.

RW-the closer the bullet profile resembles FMJ, the better the feed. Remington green box (not Golden Saber) frequently will feed in guns that will only feed hardball/fmj. Federal C9BP works well also.
 
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Lee's Landing Billy said:
If we all suddenly agreed that neither platform was better or worse than the other, that would still leave us with the DUD ROUND. If all systems work perfectly and you have a dud, which then would you rather have? A tap, rack, bang or just a BANG? We have had lots of folks here that have been successful in gun fights. None can do a T,R,B as quick as someone pulling a DA revolver again. Seems like just that has to count for something. Forget the mechanics and concentrate on having to come up with a life saving shot in tenths or hundredths of a second. I have never seen anybody that could, under timing, clear a bad round as fast as pulling a DA trigger. This is multiplied when the gun requires being racked again just to be able to fire. At least a DA/SA auto will give you another whack at the dud. Striker fired guns, not so. Just something to think about. I have a few hundred shooters that will readily concede a DA or DA/SA is better for surviving a bad round. We have a Folger's coffee can 2/3 full of ammo that did not go bang on my range. If you shoot a lot, you see it a lot.
Click to expand...

^^This.

Any gun I would trust with such a thing, would be a gun that I've shot so much that I understand it, what ammunition it runs and what it will not, and what dumb things I can do to make it not run.

The tiebreaker, for me, is the simplicity of the revolver.

Striker v SA v DA/SA in pistols is tighter. There are drawbacks and advantages to each. I would personally give it to striker-fired, mostly because I think it's a lot more likely that a person would fail to operate the gun properly, than encounter a dud round, and it's easier to prepare against the misfire (regular cleaning, extensive testing, and examining your ammunition before you load it).
 
I've had 4 M&Ps (including a compact 22) with 1,000s of rounds through them and 1 malfunction. So yes that can have problems...

Do I trust them? You betcha...

PS- I like wheel guns too...;)
 
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