Does anyone have the QuickLoad program?

[STORMINORMAN]

Well, I flat screwed up. The good news was that I caught it before any bullet was loaded into a pistol or any damage was done.

I typically use 4.6gr Bullseye in many different 9mm loads. It also happens to be the volume of a scant LEE #0.5 Powder Dipper. 4.5gr of Unique is a load I use for the Federal 38 Special +P 130gr JHP-WCs.

I mistakenly loaded these bullets (which have the approximate same length as routine 148gr wadcutters) using 4.5gr of Bullseye into 38 Special cases.. My normal Bullseye load for this bullet is 3.5gr.

If loaded into 357 Magnum brass I wouldn't worry about pressure at all.

What would a program like QuickLoad estimate the pressures to be with a 148gr wadcutter (not hollow base) in 38 Special brass with 4.5gr Bullseye? Is it well within 357 Magnum pressure limits? Would these then be safe to shoot in a 357 Magnum?

I would greatly appreciate any input. I know I screwed up and am just trying to salvage what I can from this fiasco. As I was writing the load data into my records I suddenly knew something just didn't make sense/look right. It wasn't, but I recognized it in time. Cut one in half and weighed the powder. Duh!

Cheers!

P.S. Because of the design of these bullets (loaded to 1.218") there is no way an impact bullet puller can even budge them.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

If you trust QuickLoad and the pressures are truly within .357 Magnum limits I see no reason not to shoot them in a magnum revolver.

You are sure when you put the numbers into QuickLoad you used a .38 Special case in the data and not the magnum case, right? Just be very sure you use them up right a way so that they don't mistakenly find their way into a .38 Special gun. Maybe color in the primers with a red marker so you can ID them quickly.

We learn from our mistakes especially when you catch them before any damage is done.

 

[Krogen]

I'd break 'em down. You'll need to make your own decision. I accept no responsibility for your results!

Here's what Quickload thinks. I assumed flush seating.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

What would a program like QuickLoad estimate the pressures to be with a 148gr wadcutter (not hollow base) in 38 Special brass with 4.5gr Bullseye?
Because of the design of these bullets (loaded to 1.218") there is no way an impact bullet puller can even budge them.

The bullet's overall length (BOAL") is an important factor when trying to use QuickLoad to calculate pressure & velocity. You didn't tell us this.

You did say the COAL" is 1.218" so the bullets must not be seated flush to the case mouth (38 Spcl case length: 1.145" - 1.155") which helps lower the pressure a bit.

If their BOAL is ~.580", as we've assumed using the programs preset values for a 148gr L-DEWC, then the estimated pressure will be a more manageable ~26.6K psi, from what Krogen estimated.

I'm guessing you used 38 Special wadcutter cases with the double cannelures in the brass walls?

This brass has a wall thickness that's thinner, to a lower depth, to allow the DEWC/HBWC bullets to be seated that deep without being forced into the wider wall thickness above the web.

This brass is generally considered not as strong as traditional 38 Special brass which has thicker walls higher up from the web.

Nonetheless, "I'd suspect" if these are shot in a 357 Magnum revolver you'll not likely have any pressure or case failure issues if only the estimated pressure is realized.

Leading will likely be a different subject especially considering DEWCs are for target velocities & usually have a lower BHN.

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[STORMINORMAN]

Thanks to all who responded so promptly! I sincerely appreciate it.

These rounds have been segregated and appropriately marked with red paint and will never see the chamber of a 38 Special. BLUEDOT37's observations are directly on point and I should have included more detailed measurements in my original post. My bad.

These 130gr bullets are jacketed (not L-DEWCs) and are 0.612" long. They are loaded in new, nickel-plated SPEER 38 Special +P brass. I measured the brass and it is 1.151" long. The cartridge OAL is actually 1.240": they are not loaded flush with the case mouth. As such, it would appear to me that the actual pressure should be very close to the QuickLoad estimated 26623 psi and corresponding velocity of 1066 fps in Post #4?

A review of Hodgdons data for a heavier, 140gr jacketed bullet (an XTP) in 38 Special +P shows some velocities in this range: the 357 Magnum data shows most of theirSTART loads listed considerably higher in both pressures & velocities.

If I could get the impact bullet puller to move these out I could further extend the OAL. The only way to break them down is to cut the cases with a tubing cutter. That would salvage the primers and the powder. Whoppee!

There is quite a bit of information regarding historic 38/44 loads and, by extension, actual 357 Magnum loads in 38 Special cases. None seem to routinely mention fast powders like Bullseye, but do indicate velocities as high as 1400 fps using #2400. They stress that these should be limited to large frame 38 Special revolvers and 357 Magnums. Is this relevant?

I'm still in a hit of a quandary.

Thanks, again!

P.S. One possible alternate route would be to load a few each using 3.8, 4.0, 4.2gr, etc. Bullseye and see how those fire in a 357 Magnum. It would essentially be "working up" the load, but almost in a reverse way...?

 

[colt_saa]

It sounds like you are using the 130 grain HST JHP

I love that bullet

You have too much neck tension for the kinetic bullet puller to work easy

I presume these are not cases on their umpteenth reload. Most manufacturers 38 and 357 magnum brass is of the same construction, just different lengths. So odds are the brass will not fail

When worried about borderline pressure of mis-loaded ammunition, I would not try and figure out how small of a gun those can be shot in, I would use them in my strongest 357 Magnum

Do you have a lever action? Or a T/C Contender or Encore

 

[Nevada Ed]

My data manuals show Bullsey starting at 5.7grs with the 110 or 125 JHP bullets
and the lead 150 in a 357 starts at 4.6 grs. of Bullseye.

IF those are the Federal "Micro" 130 JHP bullets, I would save them for snub nose J frames
since any JHP bullet will work in a .357 Magnum for target or vermin, if needed.

Glad that you caught that!!

 

[STORMINORMAN]

colt_saa: Yes, my mistakes are indeed the Federal bullets. You are right about the neck tension as well!

As I previously indicated, in 9mm I often use 4.6gr Bullseye in various 124 and 125gr loadings. The typical 9mm case (@ 0.754") is so much shorter (almost 4/10th of an inch!) than these 38 Special cases (@ 1.151") the actual available case volume, in my way of thinking, would actually be less with a 9mm Berrys HBRN-TP 124gr bullet (0.617" long and loaded @1.150" OAL) or their HBFP-TP (0.542" long and loaded @1.060" OAL)? These bullets are both, according to Hodgdons, typically loaded at over 30,000 psi with various powders. Decidedly higher pressure than in 38 Special +P, but well within 357 Magnum levels.

So, would not that 4.5gr Bullseye in a larger available volume, as should be in the case of my mistakes, actually generate less pressure than my typical 124gr 9mm loads?

Cheers!

P.S. Ed: I don't plan to load any of these again with Bullseye, unless I do the "working up" experiment I mentioned as an alternative. I just would prefer to use these almost 50 rounds in my 357s vs.just scrapping them, should it finally be deemed safe.

 

[Krogen]

Storminorman: Can you tell us specifically what bullet, LOA and powder charge you're concerned with? In your first post you talked about a 148 gr wadcutter but I see discussion about a 130 gr jacketed bullet. Later you talk about 9mm 124 gr and 125 gr bullets. I think you're trying to correlate variables that don't line up.

Quickload is very powerful, but like any simulation software: GIGA (garbage in garbage out). I (we) can probably give you useful information if we get the right inputs. I've seen Quickload match very closely to measured velocities, but it requires good input. Case volume can make a huge difference. I found the default .223 case volume is off for example. Using actual measured water capacity fixed that. A .38 SP case isn't huge and seating depth, bullet weight, jacketed/cast all matter.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

A 38 Special (corrected from 9mm) 130gr J(acketed)H(ollow)P(oint)-W(ad)C(utter) mistakenly loaded with 4.5 gr Bullseye in a 38 Special case @ 1.242" OAL. Safe to shoot in a 357 Magnum?

The other confusing comparisons were directed towards a determination of relative case capacity?

Cheers!

Please Note: edited to correct description of bullet. 38 Special, NOT 9mm.

 

[Krogen]

A 9mm 130gr J(acketed)H(ollow)P(oint)-W(ad)C(utter) mistakenly loaded with 4.5 gr Bullseye in a 38 Special case @ 1.242" OAL. Safe to shoot in a 357 Magnum?

The other confusing comparisons were directed towards a determination of relative case capacity?

Cheers!

I'm not going to be able to help you. Your 9mm 130 grain Jacketed Hollow Point Wad Cutter doesn't exist in Quickload's or GRT's bullet databases. The form factor would be odd enough that I wouldn't substitute a typical 9mm FMJ bullet in the analyses.

Good luck.

 

[Paul in Nevada]

Were these 148gr DEWC's or 130gr HST's? Gordon's Loading Tool calculates 22,142 psi with the WC's, which is consistent with what Krogen got with Quickload. It doesn't list the HST but the pressure will be higher with a jacketed bullet.


Edit:
Kogen is way ahead of me on this one. What exactly is the projectile? Is it a 130gr HST, or a 148gr WC? Is it a 9mm or 38? In other words, 0.355", or 0.357"? Jacketed or lead? Gordon's doesn't list any 130gr HST but if I try to create a custom bullet it calculates pressure as high as 28k psi which is way over +P pressure but still under 357 mag.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

I'm not going to be able to help you. Your 9mm 130 grain Jacketed Hollow Point Wad Cutter doesn't exist in Quickload's or GRT's bullet databases. The form factor would be odd enough that I wouldn't substitute a typical 9mm FMJ bullet in the analyses.

Good luck.

Yet another error on my part. That was the Federal HST 38 Special 130gr JHP-WC bullet (as described and pictured by colt_saa in Post #6): not a 9mm.

Sorry for the additional confusion!

 

[Paul in Nevada]

OK so it's 0.357" and I believe the bullet length is 0.605". I will run it again in the morning if Krogan doesn't beat me to it.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

One more try

Okay, using the "new" data this is what QuickLoad calculates.

I found that Speer's 135gr GDHP-SB is a very close match to your Federal bullets, just a few thousandths shorter & 5grs heavier, which I tweaked those values in QL to be the same .

Then I noticed QL shows the 38 Spcl case capacity at 23.1gr. All the brands I've checked hold on average 24.0grs of water by weight, which I also tweaked in QL.

So the new "calculation" is ~23.2k psi which is a lot better than it initially looked like.

It might not be a bad idea, just for GPs, to make a few incremental loads starting from 3.5grs up to 3.7, 3.9, 4.1, & 4.3grs to test fire them individually, like you'd normally do, to remove any doubt before shooting the "bad batch" in your 357 Magnum.

Just curious, why did you seat your bullets so deep? The cannelure appears to be about mid bullet on colt_saa picture.

Lastly, where did you buy those bullets at? They sure have big mouths.

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[STORMINORMAN]

BLUEDOT37:. THANKS! That would seem to be in a pretty safe range for 357 Magnums.

There are a few threads on this forum about loading these bullets. They are from the Federal 38 Special +P Micro HST 130gr JHP-WC factory ammo. There are also a few boob-tube videos available. Surprisingly positive, for the most part. I found mine at Midway but recall that they were also once available on Gunbroker...?

That cannelure is not for crimping, rather it was designed to enhance the bullet's expansion. These are to be loaded like wadcutters, near the rim. I typically load them at an OAL of 1.242". Just NOT with that inadvertent EXTRA GRAIN of Bullseye.

Thanks, again!

P.S. Your suggestion re: "incremental loads" mirrors my P.S. in Post #5.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Thanks, again, to all & for all assistance!

I should probably attempt to explain my somewhat confusing ramblings in Post #8.

I was trying to compare the available volume in the case of these 130gr JHP-WCs as accidently loaded with 4.5gr of Bullseye in 38 Special brass with an OAL of 1.242" to the same amount of powder (actually, 4.6gr Bullseye) in much shorter 9mm brass (0.754" vs. 1.151") using two different 9mm bullets of approximately the same weights. One a RN, the other a FP, and with their corresponding OALs. Using the various measurements it looked like the available case volume, the actual room for the powder itself, would be greater in the 38 Special brass as loaded than in the 9mms.

It seemed to me that the same powder in the same (or pretty close) available volume with a similar weight bullet would generate similar pressures. Those for my typical 9mm loads as described in that post (around 30,000+ psi) are well within the 357 Magnum boundries.

Had it not been for two things, the fact that these WCs were seated so deeply and couldn't be budged & would need to be cut open, and the possibility that I might be able to safely fire them as loaded in a 357 Magnum, I probably would have never created this thread. I would have just broken them down, resized the cases and reloaded them with a grain less powder.

The upside has been that it appears QuickLoad (and Gordon's Loading Tool: THANKS, Paul in Nevada!) seem to indicate a pressure level that should be safe in 357 Magnums. I have also been given the opportunity (well, kind'a forced into it?) to be educated regarding reloading for the 38/44 and even the concept of 357 Magnum loads in 38 Special brass! And more than a bit about loading 38 Special +P as well.

So, all was not lost in the end and I definitely learned two things: be more diligent about my powder selection and that wadcutters are almost impossible to budge (at least the jacketed ones are)!

Thanks, again!