Does seller need any paperwork?

[Capt.Jim]

My friend doesn't have any paperwork to show where and when he bought his 15+ yr old S&W 442.

If I buy this gun as my #2 CCW, he'll sell it to me thru an FFL but does he need to provide any paperwork to show the origin of his gun?

Cause he have no idea where and when he bought it!

 

[Rastoff]

My friend doesn't have any paperwork to show where and when he bought his 15+ yr old S&W 442.

If I buy this gun as my #2 CCW, he'll sell it to me thru an FFL but does he need to provide any paperwork to show the origin of his gun?

Cause he have no idea where and when he bought it!

No, he does not need any proof. When you do the transfer, there is a spot for him to sign. They will run the serial number of the gun when they do the background check. Since he's owned it for a long time and is not a criminal, it's all good.

I've done several and never once have they asked anything of the seller except his ID and signature.

 

[hotrod150]

I've bought and sold several guns in the past year or so, & I have never asked to see anyone's proof of ownership (for lack of a better word). I do require the buyer have a concealed-carry license or other "good guy card", and I make out a bill of sale for the transaction for my own records whether it is a sale or a purchase. I've only had one person (potential buyer) balk at the bill of sale- he refused to do one, citing a concern about future confiscations by the gov'ment, etc. I declined to sell to him.
I keep my both my purchase and sale records, just in case the gun is ever involved in some criminal activity and attention blows back on me. I had that happen once years ago- I didn't keep such good records back then, and the lack of such records caused me a few tense moments when being interviewed by the investigating officers.

 

[joelitespeed]

In PA none is required, but I get a receipt with serial number from the shop when they take it into inventory. Gives me some wiggle room if anything bad happens.

 

[LenS]

No, he does not need any proof. When you do the transfer, there is a spot for him to sign. They will run the serial number of the gun when they do the background check. Since he's owned it for a long time and is not a criminal, it's all good.

I've done several and never once have they asked anything of the seller except his ID and signature.

Really?? Do they actually run every gun sale thru NCIC for a stolen check in CA?

Here in MA, only LE can do that and therefore there are no guarantees even if you buy from a dealer. Private sales (buy or sell) I always do a Bill of Sale for both parties and that is it. With dealers, get a receipt and you are GTG.

 

[hangnoose]

BILL OF SALE?

Good ? laws vary place to place. dealing through an FFL puts all the problems on them, no need for you to worry. in a private sale which I mostly do, I always check for a FL drivers license and that is all the law req's. However I do like to get a bill of sale both ways complete with ser#, dr lic# and signature if the other party is willing, to CMA.

 

[Rastoff]

Really?? Do they actually run every gun sale thru NCIC for a stolen check in CA?

Here in MA, only LE can do that and therefore there are no guarantees even if you buy from a dealer. Private sales (buy or sell) I always do a Bill of Sale for both parties and that is it. With dealers, get a receipt and you are GTG.

Well, I don't pretend to know the system inside and out. However, I did speak to the CA DOJ about our 10 day wait once. They told me that is usually takes most of the 10 days to get all the checks done.

First it goes to the DMV where they check for any outstanding tickets or warrants for the buyer. This takes a couple of days. Then it goes to the local PD or Sheriff again looking for warrants on the person and run the gun itself. If anything pops up, they then do a state check for the same. This takes a couple of days. Then it goes to the DOJ where they verify the legality of the sale. They check it against the approved list and to see if the buyer has bought any handgun within the last 30 days. Of course this takes a couple of days as well.

This is what the guy at the CA DOJ told me over the phone. He didn't say anything about the NCIC, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did run every gun through it.

I got caught for trying to buy two handguns withing 30 days once. Person to person transfers, where both parties live in the state of CA, do not need to meet the approved handgun list or the 30 day wait. I had just purchased a handgun from a private party when I bought my first M&P. I didn't realize that person to person transfers, when one party is from another state, are handled like new purchases.

Of course, I don't operate the system so, I don't know all the intricate details. Maybe they don't run every serial number, but I'll bet they do.



If everything goes smoothly, it takes about 8 calendar days to go through the background checks. None of these departments work on the weekend or any of the 10 national holidays. Thus, it's usually day 9 before the background check is done. Stupid, huh?

With a little thought, I'm sure we could reduce this time to less than an hour, maybe even a few minutes. Alas, these departments do not work together. At least 90% of the time is lost due to transfer of paperwork and simply sitting on a desk waiting to be dealt with.

 

[jaykellogg]

Here in NC if you have a CCW they don't do a background check. I haven't bought any guns FTF and run them through a dealer. I assume if I buy a gun at a dealer it is has been checked to be sure it is clean. When i bought a lot of guns in PA I went for FTF sales and I never ran them through a dealer. I did, however sell some that way where the buyer wanted paperwork showing the gun was his. Now I know that PA does not allow FTF sales of handguns.

If you sell a gun and it ends up in a crime it is better if you sold it through a dealer. If you sell several guns used in crimes you may have some 'splainin to do.

 

[J. R. WEEMS]

Here in NC if you have a CCW they don't do a background check. I haven't bought any guns FTF and run them through a dealer. I assume if I buy a gun at a dealer it is has been checked to be sure it is clean. When i bought a lot of guns in PA I went for FTF sales and I never ran them through a dealer. I did, however sell some that way where the buyer wanted paperwork showing the gun was his. Now I know that PA does not allow FTF sales of handguns.

If you sell a gun and it ends up in a crime it is better if you sold it through a dealer. If you sell several guns used in crimes you may have some 'splainin to do.

NO PRIVATE SALES IN PA????

 

[speedyquad]

NO PRIVATE SALES IN PA????

No, handguns must go through a ffl. it's no big deal, though. there is no waiting period. i fill out the form, they call and do a check on me, i pay them a few dollars and walk out with the new to me handgun...ten minutes at most unless you have to wait in line...long guns(rifles, shotguns, muzzleloaders, etc) are a different story..i can sell you one in my outhouse and no one cares...

 

[Rastoff]

No, handguns must go through a ffl. it's no big deal, though. there is no waiting period. i fill out the form, they call and do a check on me, i pay them a few dollars and walk out with the new to me handgun...ten minutes at most unless you have to wait in line...long guns(rifles, shotguns, muzzleloaders, etc) are a different story..i can sell you one in my outhouse and no one cares...

Take it from someone who's been through this, start writing letters to get that removed. That is exactly how it started in CA and now things are out of hand.

When I first moved here, I could do what I wanted. I could walk into a store and buy a gun and walk out 15 minutes later with that gun. I could sell face to face without any paperwork.

Then they imposed handgun sales had to be done at an FFL. People said it wasn't a big deal.
Then there was a 5 day wait for a handgun. Not a big deal, I'm in no hurry.
Then it went to a 10 day wait for handguns. Still no big deal. How often do I buy a gun?
Then the limited it to 1 handgun per 30 days. Hmmm...what if I want a matched pair?
Then they expanded the wait period to all guns. Now it's a little irritating because I have a hunt next week.

That's just the tip. I don't know when they instituted the list of approved guns. It gets worse and worse every year. Take my advice, get pissed about it now or you'll be in the same situation we are here in CA.

The latest tragedy is what they call micro stamping. This is where the gun stamps a unique number on each spent casing. This will supposedly help them investigate crime which they already don't do. This law has essentially stopped any newly designed gun from being sold in CA because the technology to do this micro stamping hasn't even been produced yet.

I'm not sorry for this rant. Too many people in the US have spent too much time sitting on their butts. They spend too much time with phrases like, "Well, it's really no big deal" or "I don't want an AR so, I don't care if they're banned." Wake up people! It's not the AR their after, it's every gun you have. They don't care about lead poisoning or stray shots or drive by shootings. It's hegemony their after.

 

[2152hq]

The firearms serial number is run for stolen during the NICS check in Tenn if I remember right.
Their call goes into the State which does the check for stolen along with what ever other files they want to check. The State agency in turns calls in the NICS check and then relays all that info back to the FFL dealer.

I'm not aware of any other State that does a ser# check during the FFL transfer, but there may be others.
The FBI NICS check process itself never asks for the firearm ser#(s), make or model.

Stolen guns get cycled around through the hands of dealers and individuals all the time.
Pawn laws in most locations demand that the firearms be checked as well as other items before they are resold.
Pawn Shops have a different class FFL from a dealer. Dealer is an 01,,Pawn (dealing with firearms)is an 02.

But a regular FFL shop,,no ser# check. Buy it, turn it around and put it on the rack for sale,, sell it.
There's a paper trail of who they bought it from and who they sold it to.
As long as that trail doesn't stop with you in the event of a gun trace, you're in pretty good shape.

FFL's themselves have no access to the NCIC system directly.
That's a L/E data system only.
No 'Junior G-Man Wallet Badge' yet officially issued to FFL Holders dispite the ones you see for sale in the gun magazines.

 

[LVSteve]

We have a handgun registration system (AKA Blue Card) in Clark Co. Nevada that started in 1965 when the Mob still ran the place. Whether the scheme was for their benefit or law enforcement remains an unanswered question. What is weird is that LV Metro DO NOT CARE where you got the gun from. I was told this flat out when registering my late wife's pistol in my name.

The thing is if you sell a handgun to somebody else and they then register it, Metro has no means (or perhaps desire?) to remove your name from the record of that gun. What happens next and a new hire LEO checks a gun serial and finds it has five owners. The So. NV D party always squashes moves to get this idiocy removed at the Legislature, despite the fact that a crime has been solved by a Blue Card trace about once in the 16 years I have lived here. According to another forum, somebody with money is close to starting a lawsuit on the subject.

My current employer said there might be some work for me in CA in the medium term. I told them straight it will have to be on TDY terms because I will not become resident there.

 

[Kinman]

I don't know how relevant this is in reference to the thread but I did find it interesting when I talked to a guy. He had sold a fairly large number of Glocks to a guy that claimed to be a collector whos father had just died and left him alot of money. The guy was more than happy to sell him a bunch of Glocks that he had bought over the years, he didn't tell me how many but did say he sold him alot of guns. One day he got a knock on the door and it was the FBI. It seems the guy was taking the guns over the border into Canada and selling them to bad guys (drug dealers, gang bangers, etc.) When the FBI was through with him he also had coffee with Homeland Security, all in all he told me they pretty much took up better than a couple of days of questioning, etc. To top it off he wasn't out of the woods, it seems that if one of his guns were used in some criminal act up in Canada that he could be brought to justice in civil court...maybe they were just trying to scare him but from that point on he requires to see your driver's license and gets a bill of sale and was thinking of only doing business through an FFL, although that just galls him, as it does me.

 

[Rastoff]

I owned a S&W 4506 once. Sold it to pay the rent. Guy I sold it to died and his son got it. Son's house was robbed and the gun was stolen. The guy that stole it got caught breaking into another house.

Since I had bought it new, I was the only name on the paper trail. A cop showed up at my door one day asking about it. That's how I learned it had been stolen. The cop never even asked me any questions once he learned that I sold it.

 

[LenS]

Rastoff, thanks for the long and detailed explanation of the horrors of CA gun sales.

No doubt that they are doing an NCIC check of the S/N there too.

I just know that FFLs can't access it directly. Hopefully NCIC is a lot better than when I last used it (20+ years ago) . . . you couldn't do a granular query back then so that all you got back was a single mfr or model so it was a PITA to deal with sorting thru all the hits to see if the item you were interested in was amongst them.

 

[2152hq]

It still only hits on ser# only.
All the rest of the info is for sorting out which is the one you are looking at.

No matter what mfg and caliber you enter along with the serial number,,any and all stolen entrys with the same serial number will kick out regardless of the mfg or caliber.
I used to run everything as a 'CLT' ,,'22' ,,XXXXXX

 

[LenS]

It still only hits on ser# only.
All the rest of the info is for sorting out which is the one you are looking at.

No matter what mfg and caliber you enter along with the serial number,,any and all stolen entrys with the same serial number will kick out regardless of the mfg or caliber.
I used to run everything as a 'CLT' ,,'22' ,,XXXXXX

Thanks for the updated info.

Ugh, no excuse with modern-day database systems. It's trivial to make it so that a search is really useful and doesn't waste hours parsing thru it to figure out if you have a real hit or not.

Maybe this is part of why CA needs 10 days to clear the gun and the person for a transfer.