double action trigger staging detent

[G.T. Smith]

I was just wondering about something. I have a 1990 model 65-4 and when I pull the trigger slowly as to shoot DA there is a very slight, but noticeable, place where the trigger will stop. The next pull is similar to single action trigger pull. I like it. I read a thread or two about staging the trigger in DA but never really tried it then discovered that my gun seems to be set up for it. Is this the way they come from the factory, or do you reckon it was set up that way after then. It is a police trade in. It does have some peening around the side plate as though it has been off a few times.
I was just wondering. I really do like the way that works.
Peace,
gordon

 

[hastings]

I've owned several S&W's that had this very noticeable lag between cylinder lock-up and hammer fall. I kind of like it, since it is easy to stage the trigger pull, but if you don't want it staged a deliberate pull thru the staged point still produces a smooth DA result.

I've found that in most cases the main-spring on these revolvers had been bent slightly (by the previous owner) to reduce the felt trigger pull slightly. I don't know if the staged feel is the result of the different bending geometry the spring goes thru due to the slight "kink", or the fact that the trigger rebound spring hadn't been lightened in conjunction with the lightening of the main spring. Either way, I like the staged pull, and I have experienced no ignition problems, or spring breakage issues with the guns I left in this condition. Replacing the main-spring has eliminated the staged feel in each case.

I prefer factory stock for CCW and field carry guns, but for range guns the staging works pretty slick. That's my experience, but I'd love to hear the more knowledgeable forum members explain this in better, more accurate detail. The staged pull sometimes feels like the cylinder is rotating faster than normal in relation to the speed of the trigger pull, and I occasionally worry about peening the stop notches more than necessary, like fanning a SA revolver does.

Interested in hearing more.
Hastings

 

[deanodog]

I have a model 10-5 police trade that does that in only two chambers only. The ejector/ratchet looks like it is worn somewhat and I wondered if that was the cause. I am pretty sure mine is caused by wear but I am not too knowledgeable on that.

 

[Dave T]

I'm no gun smith and never played one on TV (LOL) but I think what you guys are feeling is the cylinder locking up before the hammer gets to full cock, so the last part of the DA pull is no longer moving the cylinder but just the hammer. I think a good smith can set a gun up to do that but I feel honor bound to tell you something.

Back in the late 1970s I was involved in PPC competition, now called Police Revolver. The top shooters in that game, called the President's 20, to a man all recommended training to pull straight through rather than stage the trigger. That applied all the way back to 50 yards where they fired (if my memory is correct) 24 rounds.

I admit that a gun that stages easily is kind of nice. Heck, I have a 625 that does that regularly. Still, the big boys in DA revolver shooting still claim there is a better way and it's a straight through pull of the trigger.

Just sayin'
Dave

 

[CWH44300]

I'm no gun smith and never played one on TV (LOL) but I think what you guys are feeling is the cylinder locking up before the hammer gets to full cock, so the last part of the DA pull is no longer moving the cylinder but just the hammer. I think a good smith can set a gun up to do that but I feel honor bound to tell you something.

Back in the late 1970s I was involved in PPC competition, now called Police Revolver. The top shooters in that game, called the President's 20, to a man all recommended training to pull straight through rather than stage the trigger. That applied all the way back to 50 yards where they fired (if my memory is correct) 24 rounds.

I admit that a gun that stages easily is kind of nice. Heck, I have a 625 that does that regularly. Still, the big boys in DA revolver shooting still claim there is a better way and it's a straight through pull of the trigger.

Just sayin'
Dave

I've been taught the same way but the old time bulls eye shooters all staged their shots

 

[scooter123]

Personally, I prefer that my revolvers don't have this "hitch" and put in a good bit of time with my 620 to eliminate it. In my case that meant stoning 2 drive pawls on the extractor and shimming the trigger by 0.0015 inch to resolve an issue with the trigger dragging on the frame.

IMO staging a DA trigger is a bad habit and something to be avoided. As for why, it's not how you would used the gun for defense and I believe that you should train as you would use the gun for Defense.

Yes, it does take more time to master a complete trigger stroke, however the benefit to training to use a complete trigger stroke is that your ability won't just improve with double action shooting, that improved ability to release a long heavy trigger accurately will also improve your ability with single action or striker fired semi's. About the only negative is that it can lead to a tendancy to "slap" the trigger on a single action semi, however paying attention and training with these different types of triggers can keep that tendancy in check.

I'll also note that the S&W manual SPECIFICALLY recomends that the trigger NOT be staged in double action shooting. As for why, by design these revolvers rely for a light extent on the inertia of the cylinder turning to carry it into full lock. With many S&W's if you pull the trigger very very slowly, or thumb cock it very very slowly, you will find one, or more than one, position where the hammer will fall BEFORE the cylinder stop clicks into it's notch. By design the S&W locking mechanism is just a bit loose and this was done to insure that the gun will function properly even it it's gummed up with old oil or hasn't ever been cleaned. If you stage a trigger too slowly and the gun fires without that cylinder stop in it's notch, it's not really a safety issue, however as the bullet strikes the forcing cone it will cause the cylinder to rotate and SLAM into the cylinder stop. That's not good for the gun and making shooting this way a habit will lead to peening of the window for the cylinder stop, peening of the cylinder stop itself, and peening of the cylinder stop notches in the cylinder.

As for the cause for this "hitch", it can be due to multiple effects but in most cases can be generalized by just saying the gun is a bit "tight". This means that as the gun wears that "hitch" will slowly disappear.

 

[1x2]

Good discussion, scooter, thanks.
Additionally, I've been told by a competition shooter whose opinions I value that staging is dangerous to accuracy because shooters who stage, do that so as to make a "final" alignment of the sights with the target and when they're satisfied that they've got it, have a tendency to do one of two things:
*jerk the trigger, before the sights drift off target, and/or
*occasionally fail to complete the shot (well) because their trigger finger "freezes".
Note: Any one individual may or may not exhibit either of these behaviors.
This person also opined that repeated staging:
*prematurely wears out your trigger finger muscles which may become important during the course of a long match, and
*increases the amount of time that the shooter isn't breathing, so the oxygen in the shooter's eyes dissipates, changing "the scenery".

I find improved accuracy from aligning the sights before I start the DA trigger pull, then a smooth pull with no stalling.

FWIW.