Double Strike Question 3953TSW, 5906, 6906, 5946

[ACEd]

My question really pertains to 3rd Generation Pistols in general, but specifically to 3 pistols I have recent experience with.

My understanding was that Double Strike capability was an unusual feature unique to certain 3rd generation pistols.

But I have both a 5906 and 6906 which appear to have Double Strike capability - i.e. you can pull the trigger and dry fire multiple times without racking the slide as long as a magazine is in place and safety is disengaged.

I also have a 5946TW which does not have this capability even though it is DAO.

So can someone please clarify which pistols (all TDA? and some DAO?) would have a Double Strike Capability?

 

[GaryS]

All TDA guns, or all regular production TDA guns, have double strike capability.

The reason I put "all regular production" in there is because inevitably someone will mention that there was a special run of five guns where that was modified.

I use a 3914NL with a laser target for practice. I can pull the trigger an infinite number of times and the hammer will cycle.

 

[ACEd]

All TDA guns, or all regular production TDA guns, have double strike capability.

The reason I put "all regular production" in there is because inevitably someone will mention that there was a special run of five guns where that was modified.

I use a 3914NL with a laser target for practice. I can pull the trigger an infinite number of times and the hammer will cycle.

Thanks - that answers the TDA part - but it appears the DAO are not Double Strike Capable by default with some specific exceptions (3914DAO?)

 

[LVSteve]

There are very few what I would call true DAO, mass produced, semi-auto pistols. The Sig P250 series, SCCY CPX-1/2/3, and the Keltec P-11 are the only three that come to mind on a Sunday afternoon.

Most "DAO" pistols with a hammer partially precock the hammer in recoil, much like a Glock partially precocks the striker. No recoil action, no workee the second time.

 

[GaryS]

There a few threads, including a recent one, on the differences.

Lov'n my DAO only Smiths

The short story is that the 3914DAO was produced by removing the single action notch on the hammer. That's true for the "D" versions of the Chiefs Specials as well. Some of the 457D were also made that way, but it seems that more of them were made using the traditional humped partially pre cocked hammer.

Thanks - that answers the TDA part - but it appears the DAO are not Double Strike Capable by default with some specific exceptions (3914DAO?)

 

[Sevens]

I don’t know who or when or why this “TDA” appeared when the standard was “DA/SA”, which means the same thing. “Traditional double action” means, I guess, the kind of setup we always had… which is quite literally a double action first shot and a short single action pull for follow up shots. The term DA/SA kind of explains that, “tradional double action” doesn’t do as good a job of describing that. So I think the TDA nomenclature is not an upgrade over DA/SA.

As to the question, all of the DAO 3rd Gen pistols have no second strike capability except that oddball 3914DAO.

The 3914DAO was the answer to a LE contract demand, and while it is a double action only, what they truly made was your very standard DA/SA system and then they shaved the single action ledge off the hammer so your only trigger pull is the very long first shot double action.

The DAO 3rd Gen designs have a noticeably shorter, lighter double action trigger pull than the first shot of our standard DA/SA guns.

The reason for that is because the movement of the slide pre-cocks the hammer. Not fully cocks, but pre-cocks it. If you pull the trigger and get no bang, you have no second strike capability.

Now consider…
Is a second strike capability something that you need? Or is it something that you *THINK* you need?

If you pull the trigger and no bang happens, there is only one very best method of going forward quickly and surely. It’s to get that offending round of the gun. Heck, it’s possible that you had NO round in there and no number of trigger pulls will fix that.

In to your practice and training regimen, have lots of failure drills. Tap/rack, be on top of your gun to eliminate failures quickly, move past them, and get back to shooting.

 

[.455_Hunter]

I like the extra safety provided by the longer trigger stroke on my 3914DAO versus the 3954 I previously owned.

 

[ACEd]

I don’t know who or when or why this “TDA” appeared when the standard was “DA/SA”, which means the same thing. “Traditional double action” means, I guess, the kind of setup we always had… which is quite literally a double action first shot and a short single action pull for follow up shots. The term DA/SA kind of explains that, “tradional double action” doesn’t do as good a job of describing that. So I think the TDA nomenclature is not an upgrade over DA/SA.

As to the question, all of the DAO 3rd Gen pistols have no second strike capability except that oddball 3914DAO.

The 3914DAO was the answer to a LE contract demand, and while it is a double action only, what they truly made was your very standard DA/SA system and then they shaved the single action ledge off the hammer so your only trigger pull is the very long first shot double action.

The DAO 3rd Gen designs have a noticeably shorter, lighter double action trigger pull than the first shot of our standard DA/SA guns.

The reason for that is because the movement of the slide pre-cocks the hammer. Not fully cocks, but pre-cocks it. If you pull the trigger and get no bang, you have no second strike capability.

Now consider…
Is a second strike capability something that you need? Or is it something that you *THINK* you need?

If you pull the trigger and no bang happens, there is only one very best method of going forward quickly and surely. It’s to get that offending round of the gun. Heck, it’s possible that you had NO round in there and no number of trigger pulls will fix that.

In to your practice and training regimen, have lots of failure drills. Tap/rack, be on top of your gun to eliminate failures quickly, move past them, and get back to shooting.

Thanks for the response - did not want to start a debate on TDA nomenclature or desirability of Double Strike capability. Simply curious - I had thought none of the 3rd Generation Pistols defaulted to have Double Strike capability and was surprised to find the DA/SA (or TDA) had it.

Also I saw a DAO posted somewhere for sale recently - I believe a 3953 or 5946 - that was said to have Double Strike capability which surprised me since I thought the 3914DAO was unique in that respect. I am guessing the DAO for sale that I saw was incorrectly listed as having Double Strike capability.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Also I saw a DAO posted somewhere for sale recently - I believe a 3953 or 5946 - that was said to have Double Strike capability which surprised me since I thought the 3914DAO was unique in that respect. I am guessing the DAO for sale that I saw was incorrectly listed as having Double Strike capability.

Yes- 99.9% certain it was indicated incorrectly.

 

[ACEd]

Found the listing 3953TSW UCV5897 (Product # 404541 Houlton Me, 2013 Mfg Date)
Wondering if they put 3914DAO innerds in a 3953TSW?

"3953TSW WITH DOUBLE STRIKE CAPABILITY!!! DAO without re cycling the slide the trigger will operate the hammer every time. Most 3953's have to be cycled by hand if primer does not go off. Not this one."

"True DAO. When dry firing on a normal 3953 the slide has to be pulled back around 1/8 on an inch to reactivate trigger pull. On this 3953 that is not necessary. Every time you pull the trigger it operates the hammer, just like a double action revolver. That is the way it should be in my opinion."

 

[GaryS]

I found the auction. The seller is pretty adamant about this having second strike capability, I'd have to think that this was not how it left the factory.

The 3953 and 3913 "9 Tactical" guns were made so that they could be changed from TDA to DAO by changing a small number of parts. I forget what they are off hand, but I'm sure someone knows. My guess is that they changed the internal parts, but lef the original hammer in place.

Found the listing 3953TSW UCV5897 (Product # 404541 Houlton Me, 2013 Mfg Date)
Wondering if they put 3914DAO innerds in a 3953TSW?

"3953TSW WITH DOUBLE STRIKE CAPABILITY!!! DAO without re cycling the slide the trigger will operate the hammer every time. Most 3953's have to be cycled by hand if primer does not go off. Not this one."

"True DAO. When dry firing on a normal 3953 the slide has to be pulled back around 1/8 on an inch to reactivate trigger pull. On this 3953 that is not necessary. Every time you pull the trigger it operates the hammer, just like a double action revolver. That is the way it should be in my opinion."

 

[WTN1271]

I saw the listing a few weeks ago and asked the seller about the history of the gun. He was unsure if it came from the factory with double strike capability or if it had been modified by a previous owner or gunsmith. It looks nice but a bit too pricey for me.

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk

 

[ACEd]

Kind of makes you wonder though - who were they making 3953TSW for in 2013? I realized they were still making 5946 (per NYPD specification with No Mag Disconnect - I have 1) and 3914DAO (NYPD?) in Houlton ME in that time frame, but who was still ordering 3953TSW in 2013?

 

[JohnHL]

I, too perused the GB 3953TSW with the "second strike" capability.

It looks like the standard "no second strike" S&W DAO, with the sellers insistence that it is indeed second strike capable.

It appears to retain the S&W DAO humpback hammer, although substituting the 3914DAO hammer (produced without the single action notch) and trigger would have made it a second strike DAO all the time, on every shot.

I don't know if it was done by the factory or after it left, but it would be pretty easy to file a notch in the hammer to allow the drawbar to engage the hammer in the fully at rest position (it doesn't until the hammer is pulled back a bit on the factory S&W "pre-staged" DAO).

After filing the notch, the first shot would be a "full stroke" DA with subsequent shots being "pre-staged hammer" DA shots, until and unless a round failed to ignite, then it would be full stroke DA again.

So instead of S&W DAO, second strike DAO, TDA, or DA/SA it would be SSDA/PSDA (Second Strike Double Action/Pre Staged Double Action).

John

 

[GaryS]

Speculation alert.

From threads going back to about 2015/16, it appears that as agencies were replacing 3rd Gen guns with newer models S&W was able to release frames that they had in reserve for repairs or warranty replacements.

Since they hate to throw things like that away, they built up some guns in various configurations and made them available to the public. That appears to have included some 3914DAO guns that were never shipped to NYPD, some 3953TSWs, and even the never heard of before 3914TSW.

When my son moved to SC in about 2017, a LGS near him had some NIB 3953TSW guns. At the same time a small number of 3914TSW guns showed up here and there on various auction sights.

Some of these guns may been built before and held as replacements.

We'll probably never know as I doubt S&W would release this information. My 3914DAO has a build date of 2012 and it was formerly the property of a NYPD officer. So, we know that at least a few guns were still being produced after the end of commercial sales.

I expect the same goes for 5946TSW guns as well.

Again, it's speculation based on various comments made here over the years.

Kind of makes you wonder though - who were they making 3953TSW for in 2013? I realized they were still making 5946 (per NYPD specification with No Mag Disconnect - I have 1) and 3914DAO (NYPD?) in Houlton ME in that time frame, but who was still ordering 3953TSW in 2013?

 

[quikdraw67]

I looked at the listing as well. I see in the SCSW VOL 4 that the production code shows DA instead of DAO, and also SPECIAL.

I reached out to the seller. and he said that it's a traditional DAO, not the typical 3rd Gen DAO.

I guess the only way to answer that question is a letter?

I'm tempted because it's unusual, and apparently in very good condition.

The downside is the price. With shipping, taxes, and fees plus the transfer it would be north of a grand.

That's more than I'm willing to spend.

 

[ACEd]

I looked at the listing as well. I see in the SCSW VOL 4 that the production code shows D instead of DAO, and also SPECIAL.

I reached out to the seller. and he said that it's a traditional DAO, not the typical 3rd Gen DAO.

I guess the only way to answer that question is a letter?

I'm tempted because it's unusual, and apparently in very good condition.

The downside is the price. With shipping, taxes, and fees plus the transfer it would be north of a grand.

That's more than I'm willing to spend.

Agree on price - too high - there have been 4 3953TSW in UCU5793-UCU5897 in original SW cases LNIB on GB recently - all 404541, all 8rd, all UPC 0 22188 11503 1, all Houlton ME, 3 with same 3197 date code (UCV5883 checked by SW as 2013). Dont think any went over $600.

Wondering if the odd Product # 404541 may be tied to a unique Double Strike configuration - there have been at least 5 examples with that product code on GB in last year (4 mentioned above plus one BAW prefix Springfield, MA dated 2004 - I have one and will try to check it when I get a chance today or tomorrow.

Other Product codes observed for 3953TSW are 104540 (early = 1997-1999 7rd, No Rail, no LCI port) and 149332 (9/2008 8 rd, with Rail + LCI Port)

 

[toddcfii]

After filing the notch, the first shot would be a "full stroke" DA with subsequent shots being "pre-staged hammer" DA shots, until and unless a round failed to ignite, then it would be full stroke DA again.

So instead of S&W DAO, second strike DAO, TDA, or DA/SA it would be SSDA/PSDA (Second Strike Double Action/Pre Staged Double Action).

John

John

This part has me confused. My experience with semi pre cocked DA guns is with HK P2000s. With those the first shot is pre staged also because the slide has to be racked to load a round. Wouldn’t that be true for f the pre staged s&ws also? I mean how do you get a round in the chamber without racking the slide? Which is the method that the hammer is pre staged?
TIA

 

[quikdraw67]

Agree on price - too high - there have been 4 3953TSW in UCU5793-UCU5897 in original SW cases LNIB on GB recently - all 404541, all 8rd, all UPC 0 22188 11503 1, all Houlton ME, 3 with same 3197 date code (UCV5883 checked by SW as 2013). Dont think any went over $600.

Wondering if the odd Product # 404541 may be tied to a unique Double Strike configuration - there have been at least 5 examples with that product code on GB in last year (4 mentioned above plus one BAW prefix Springfield, MA dated 2004 - I have one and will try to check it when I get a chance today or tomorrow.

Other Product codes observed for 3953TSW are 104540 (early = 1997-1999 7rd, No Rail, no LCI port) and 149332 (9/2008 8 rd, with Rail + LCI Port)

Yes please, let us know. I like my 3914DAO, and I wouldn't mind having this if it is truly a traditional DAO.

But that price......

 

[GaryS]

The SCSW lists to product codes for the 3953TSW "9Tactical."

104541 with features DAO, FS (stainless color), AA (alloy frame), SB (Black Blade front sight) , NLC (Novak Low Carry Sight), ER (Equipment Rail).

404541 noted as "DA Special." That's the product code on the box with the gun for sale. Does DA Special indicate yet another small production run of guns with special features?

One more fun fact. This might have been a LE gun as the picture of gun in the box with accessories show a total of three magazines, which is how LE guns were shipped.

Another 3rd Generation mystery.

Agree on price - too high - there have been 4 3953TSW in UCU5793-UCU5897 in original SW cases LNIB on GB recently - all 404541, all 8rd, all UPC 0 22188 11503 1, all Houlton ME, 3 with same 3197 date code (UCV5883 checked by SW as 2013). Dont think any went over $600.

Wondering if the odd Product # 404541 may be tied to a unique Double Strike configuration - there have been at least 5 examples with that product code on GB in last year (4 mentioned above plus one BAW prefix Springfield, MA dated 2004 - I have one and will try to check it when I get a chance today or tomorrow.

Other Product codes observed for 3953TSW are 104540 (early = 1997-1999 7rd, No Rail, no LCI port) and 149332 (9/2008 8 rd, with Rail + LCI Port)