Dropping your gun

[ralph7]

Not wanting to derail the 1908 Colt thread, I have a question...

I know folks have been injured and killed by a dropped handgun, but what I have a hard time visualizing is how does a dropped hammerless pistol shoot facing the dropee when the inertia direction is opposite of the cartridge?

 

[sigp220.45]

Not wanting to derail the 1908 Colt thread, I have a question...

I know folks have been injured and killed by a dropped handgun, but what I have a hard time visualizing is how does a dropped hammerless pistol shoot facing the dropee when the inertia direction is opposite of the cartridge?

I have serious doubts about the most cited case involving some gunwriter and a 1903 Colt Pocket Hammerless.

All I've seen are regurgitations of the same forum post.

I suppose you could drop such a pistol muzzle down on a concrete floor and have the gun discharge and the bullet come back and hit you in the chest, but I wouldn't go to that first.

I'd like to see a police report, autopsy report, or even a news story before I buy that one.

Somehow this only applies to the little Colts. Every pre-series 80 1911 can go off if dropped on its nose, but you don't get the obligatory warning with those.

 

[ralph7]

I have serious doubts about the most cited case involving some gunwriter and a 1903 Colt Pocket Hammerless.

All I've seen are regurgitations of the same forum post.

I suppose you could drop such a pistol muzzle down on a concrete floor and have the gun discharge and the bullet come back and hit you in the chest, but I wouldn't go to that first.

I'd like to see a police report, autopsy report, or even a news story before I buy that one.

Somehow this only applies to the little Colts. Every pre-series 80 1911 can go off if dropped on its nose, but you don't get the obligatory warning with those.

And dropping on the nose, inertia would send the firing pin downward to fire the cartridge into the striking area.
So everybody gets hurt by the ricochet??

 

[alwslate]

The 1908 Colt .380 is not a hammerless pistol It is a concealed hammer gun. With a round chambered the hammer would be in the cocked position so it might not have any thing to do with firing pin inertia if the gun fired.

 

[ralph7]

The 1908 Colt .380 is not a hammerless pistol It is a concealed hammer gun. With a round chambered the hammer would be in the cocked position so it might not have any thing to do with firing pin inertia if the gun fired.

The safety being on should rectify that scenario, right?

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Every pre-series 80 1911 can go off if dropped on its nose, but you don't get the obligatory warning with those.

My Father in law did extensive testing on 1911's for the City of Columbus, Ohio in the mid 1960's.

They could not get a 1911 to land in a position to fire when dropped during any controlled experiment! Only a freak accident could get that to happen. (and it did, once) The gun's weight distribution was and is such that they just won't land on their muzzel! They then dropped just the slide on the muzzel and got the to fire on impact, but it had to be from over 9 feet in the air. Seeing as how most post WWI ceilings are only 8 feet tall, this is normally unlikely indoors, and outdoors hitting anything but a rock like surface wouldn't allow ignition.

What about the hammer striking the ground first? Everything above applies plus, The 1911 what designed to be carried "Cocked and locked" (thumb safety engaged). The WWII surplus 1911's used in the tests could not be made to fire from the Cocked position when struck with 8 pound sledge hammers; The hammer spurs broke on 3 and the fourth sheared the hammer mounting pin!

Columbus didn't adopt the 1911 pistol because of any failure of safety features. It was the "Cocked and locked" appearance of the hammer. City council members thought it looked "Menacing"! (The mayor was a WWII veteran and wanted to adopt the 1911!)

Ivan

 

[sigp220.45]

And dropping on the nose, inertia would send the firing pin downward to fire the cartridge into the striking area.
So everybody gets hurt by the ricochet??

Thats the party line.

Colt thought it was enough of a possibility that they came up with the Series 80 system for the 1911.

Personally I don't think its worth worrying about. More people have been shot by trying to keep a dropped gun from hitting the ground than by just letting it go.

 

[alwslate]

The safety being on should rectify that scenario, right?

No. The old single action semi auto designs that were striker fired or concealed hammer with a firing pin had no firing pin blockers. They had safeties that simply blocked the trigger from being pulled along with grip safeties. Hard to believe but true that carrying the gun with the safety on was no protection if the gun was dropped. As said above a semi auto was much more likely to land muzzle up if dropped because of weight distribution. In fact early owner's manuals for the 1910 FN-Brownings said they were safe to carry in a pocket with safety off because firing the gun required substantial pressure in opposite directions. On the trigger and grip safety which was virtually impossible by accident. A hard fall might cause the sear to slip from the firing pin or striker, firing the gun right at the person who dropped it on concrete. So the old rule applies, know your gun!

 

[petepeterson]

More people have been shot by trying to keep a dropped gun from hitting the ground than by just letting it go.

That's what I always say. A certain WR formerly of the Pittsburgh parish learned that the hard way....

 

[jeffrefrig]

That's what I always say. A certain WR formerly of the Pittsburgh parish learned that the hard way....

He should have had his "Plexiglass" pants on!

 

[2152hq]

The 1903 Safety blocks the Sear when engaged. It blocks the Sear from movement right opposite from the Sear's engagent with the Hammer.

The Grip Safety also blocks the Sear. When the Grip Safety is extended out (On Safe) the hooks on the top front of the Grip Safety sit atop the matching platform curving upwards on the Sear.

Closely hand fitted, the Grip Safety will ensure no movement of the Sear when the trigger is pressed.
Disengage the GripSafety, the ThumbSafety still engaged will prevent the Sear from movement when the trigger is pressed.
Again,,this all depends on close hand fitting.

Pistols that have had parts swapped out and exchanged, clumsy gunsmithing done to them, parts simply exchanged and left w/o further examination because the mechanism 'Seems to work OK' may have serious safety problems.

The Hammer does have a half cock notch. It's there as another safety devise though the hammer being completely hidden.
The half cock notch is there to catch the hammer should it fall from the full cock notch and to catch and hold it there so the pistol does not discharge accidentaly.

I've seen these where the 1/2cock has been removed . Disconnectors altered, grip safetys pinned in the 'Safe-Off' condition, Full Cock sear notches worked over for what I can guess is a better trigger pull.....all that can often lead to an accidental discharge and possibly someone getting shot.

As far as the firing pin is concerned. It's a 2 piece FP. The front half is spring loaded to retract.
If a FP lock was needed, I think there would have been one on it at the Militarys demand late in production, much like the S&W M&P change to in hammer block.

The 1911 didn't have one originally. In the 1930's with little to do, a guy at Colt decided the 1911 might need a firing Pin Lock.
So we had the Swartz Firing Pin Lock System for a while on Commercial Colt 1911.
The Military never went for the trinket AFAIK.
The '80 version nothing really new.

Re: the Shooting Death,,,,
If the self inflicted wound from the dropped 1903 happened as they state with the pistol carried w/a round in the chamber,,,,and I assume the thumb safety engaged ,,,,

IF it fired when striking the floor in that condition,,,
The pistol should have been found with the fired casing still in the chamber of the pistol,,
The thumb-safety still engaged,,
Internal hammer still cocked

Then I'd believe that the firingpin inertia alone fired the cartridge in the chamber...

 

[ralph7]

The 1903 Safety blocks the Sear when engaged. It blocks the Sear from movement right opposite from the Sear's engagent with the Hammer.

The Grip Safety also blocks the Sear. When the Grip Safety is extended out (On Safe) the hooks on the top front of the Grip Safety sit atop the matching platform curving upwards on the Sear.

Closely hand fitted, the Grip Safety will ensure no movement of the Sear when the trigger is pressed.
Disengage the GripSafety, the ThumbSafety still engaged will prevent the Sear from movement when the trigger is pressed.
Again,,this all depends on close hand fitting.

Pistols that have had parts swapped out and exchanged, clumsy gunsmithing done to them, parts simply exchanged and left w/o further examination because the mechanism 'Seems to work OK' may have serious safety problems.

The Hammer does have a half cock notch. It's there as another safety devise though the hammer being completely hidden.
The half cock notch is there to catch the hammer should it fall from the full cock notch and to catch and hold it there so the pistol does not discharge accidentaly.

I've seen these where the 1/2cock has been removed . Disconnectors altered, grip safetys pinned in the 'Safe-Off' condition, Full Cock sear notches worked over for what I can guess is a better trigger pull.....all that can often lead to an accidental discharge and possibly someone getting shot.

As far as the firing pin is concerned. It's a 2 piece FP. The front half is spring loaded to retract.
If a FP lock was needed, I think there would have been one on it at the Militarys demand late in production, much like the S&W M&P change to in hammer block.

The 1911 didn't have one originally. In the 1930's with little to do, a guy at Colt decided the 1911 might need a firing Pin Lock.
So we had the Swartz Firing Pin Lock System for a while on Commercial Colt 1911.
The Military never went for the trinket AFAIK.
The '80 version nothing really new.

Re: the Shooting Death,,,,
If the self inflicted wound from the dropped 1903 happened as they state with the pistol carried w/a round in the chamber,,,,and I assume the thumb safety engaged ,,,,

IF it fired when striking the floor in that condition,,,
The pistol should have been found with the fired casing still in the chamber of the pistol,,
The thumb-safety still engaged,,
Internal hammer still cocked

Then I'd believe that the firingpin inertia alone fired the cartridge in the chamber...

So you are saying that a pistol that is not held firmly will not eject the casing?

 

[alwslate]

My bet is that the gun in question had been altered. Maybe bubba decided to do a trigger job and left the gun with reduced engagement of the sear and hammer. Or a heavily buffed refinish might have ruined the close original fitting of parts. Hard to believe a fall from only waistband height would fire an all original gun. I have a pair of Colt 1903s and I would carry one chamber loaded in a pocket or belt holster without fear.

 

[lawandorder]

4 Real-Life Cases of Dropped Gun Inertia Discharge – Tactical Life Gun Magazine: Gun News and Gun Reviews

 

[STORM2]

It seems if you look you can find videos of aliens, monsters, UFOs and almost every other not likely thing on earth, but….I can't find a video of a functional, not altered 1911 dropped and going off….old or new. I once told a guy he could drop any of mine from any height he wanted to prove it would fire if he escrowed the money to replace the gun if it did not fire. I haven't had a taker yet…but the story lives on. If it had been done I can't imagine no video.

 

[Greyman50]

Had a friend killed back in late 70's , carrying 1911 cocked and locked in his waistband instead of holster. Sadly he was on vacation, bent over to get suitcase from trunk, 1911 fell out, hammer hit curb, broke internals and discharged sending 185 JHP in at waist line through torso. M.E. said he most likely died before hitting ground in front of wife and kids. Many of us had purchased original RoyBanker Pancakes before, just about every one after. Still have mine with many others.

 

[Puller]

So you are saying that a pistol that is not held firmly will not eject the casing?

I think the point he was making is that with the thumb safety engaged the slide cannot be retracted, therefore the shell cannot be ejected and the hammer not be reset to cocked position.

I agree with the assessment, if the safeties were indeed engaged and it was firing pin inertia that fired the round then the hammer would be down and the fired case would still be in the chamber.

 

[2152hq]

So you are saying that a pistol that is not held firmly will not eject the casing?

As Puller says,,the thumbsafety engaged (and that condition I assumed), the slide would not be able to retract upon a FP inertia firing.
The Thumbsafety remains in the SAFE position.
The fired case is in the chamber.