Dry Firing: Bad Practice or Bad Luck?

[HCH]

Unloaded the 3913TSW to do a little dry fire practice to exercise the fingers. I don't use a snap cap, can't see the sense in spending $15 on a package of 6 of them. I mean, who needs 6 of them? Maybe it's just me, but they never eject and chamber on their own anyways.

The recently purchased, used, but unfired pistol probably has about 500 rounds through it and about 1000 dry fires preformed to smooth things out. Well, the sound of dry firing wasn't the same as it nomally was.

When I investigated, the firing pin was protruding forward from the breach and wouldn't budge with reasonable pressure applied with a popsicle stick.

I disassembled the slide, removed the rear sight, dropped out the metal mag safety button/spring and the firing pin safety plunger/spring to see the firing pin. I was able to move the firing pin a bit to the rear, but needed a 1/16 pin punch to drive it out. It looked fine, but when I removed the firing pin spring, I found it had broken off about 3 coils worth at the front end which jammed up the pin.

So, the questions is, is dry firing without a snap cap bad or was it a bad spring? Is this unusual on a 3rd. gen?

Thanks and Happy 4th to all.

 

[jrhoney]

Sounds like a bum spring. I have dry fired my guns countless times with no ill effects. But that is just my experience. If it is designed to cope with the pressures and shock of a cartridge going off, then the stress of the hammer falling should not hurt anything.

 

[TAKJR]

HCH:

I would get a Wolff replacement firing pin spring and keep on dry firing.

TAKJR

 

[TSQUARED]

I am not a fan of dry firing and never dry fire either my revolvers or semi autos.

 

[MichiganScott]

Bad luck, although I can't see doing extensive dry firing.

 

[Kavinsky]

I always use snap caps but I think its more the action of someome slamming a slide on an empty chamber that does the most damage.

As from what I understand on semi autos the brass of the cartridge acts as a shock absorber and without it your slamming metal on metal rather than metal on brass.

 

[scooter123]

I find it surprizing that so few fail to consider how things are designed to operate.

Think about it, most semi auto pistols use what is called an "inertial" firing pin. What this means is that the primer is ignited by the stored Inertia in the firing pin instead of direct force of the firing pin or striker hitting the firing pin. As for why this is done, it's a matter of safety, a hammer resting on an inertial firing pin cannot be driven far enough forward by a drop to cause a primer to ignite.

By DESIGN an Inertial firing pin is capable of stroking much further forward than the hammer or striker can drive it. As a result in many cases the ONLY thing that limits the forward motion is the return spring or the entrapment of the slide UNLESS THAT FIRING PIN CONTACTS A PRIMER. When there is a primer in place that firing pin will only travel far enough to collapse the primer on the anvil contained within the primer. This means that it won't overcompress the return spring, contact a cross roll pin that entraps the firing pin, or break out a larger hole in the breech face of the slide, WHEN IT'S FUNCTIONING AS IT'S DESIGNED TO. Specifically, when it's contacting a primer and having it's total stroke limited by that contact.

So, what is a Snap Cap? It is a substitute for a primer. Some use a spring loaded plate to soak up the strike of the firing pin and some use a hard type of rubber called Urethane. This hasn't been done by accident or as a gimmick, it's been done because gunsmiths have learned that when dry firing for trigger practice it's essential to use something that prevents the firing pin from "bottoming out".

Frankly, as an Engineer I get rather upset and impatient with people who abuse fine mechanical devices. Fact is that there are times when I'd like to give them a "Gibbs slap" hard enough to ring their bells. Those who think that their isn't any harm to dry firing without using a snap cap please have a friend or family member break a 1x3 piece of poplar across the back of your head and consider yourself "Gibbs slapped". Those who think that an already fired casing, or an empty casing with an eraser or silicone cement in the primer pocket, you also need to be "Gibbs Slapped". Because a cheap pencil eraser or silicone cement does NOT have the same hardness or rebound properties of a ENGINEERED URETHANE and an already dimpled primer is, gee whiz, ALREADY DIMPLED.

Come on folks. You have spent many hundreds and in some cases THOUSANDS of hard earned dollars on a finely crafted PRECISION machine and you are too stinking cheap to purchase a pack of snap caps for 15 bucks? I'll tell you right now, that's a false savings that borders as being nearly as foolish as never changing the oil in your car. Keep on with that practice and sooner or later you'll pay the price for your "economy" with a broken pistol.

 

[18DAI]

You don't even really need to purchase a snap cap, although it is good insurance. Simply use a spent casing from your last range session. Its better than nothing and already paid for.

And S&W 3rd generation pistols will feed it from a mag too! Regards 18DAI

 

[Fat B]

Scooter, I hear what you're saying and on most items I'd agree with you. If a firearm is purchased for $300, an extra 5% to buy some snapcaps is not that much if it worries you. Then you can also practice reloading and malfunction drills without having to buy dummy rounds or use live ammo.

But I disagree with you over dry firing in general. It states in my owners maunal that it's o.k. to dryfire my S&W. First, I am comfortable relying on their advice as I'm sure it's been tested and retested and tested again and they probably will always have ongoing tests. Why disagree with S&W? Second, I think your mistaken when you equate percision with fragile. I think I could dry fire my pistol until the sun comes up and something else will still fail before the spring does or the firing pin breaks. Maybe I'm wrong or maybe 3rd gens are a little different but I won't worry about dry firing a quality firearm one bit.

 

[EarlFH]

+1 for scooter123.

I use snapcaps for every firearm I own. It's false savings in my book. If I'm too cheap to give my guns a little preventative protection, needed or not, then I might as well just buy a beater to shoot.

EarlFH

 

[RobzGuns]

If the owner's manual (especially for a newer pistol) simply states that dry firing is okay and nothing more, then it should be good, no matter how many trigger pulls are done. Some manuals do spell out that occasional dry firing is okay, but not excessive dry firing. Some Brands do specifically state NOT to dry fire, for the reasons mentioned by scooter123.

Personally, I use Snap-Caps in every weapon I own if I plan on practicing trigger press at home (>10 times), even my shotgun. We also use Snap-Caps at the range (randomly placed in a mag) for FTF/FTE practice.
I use A-Zoom and can get about a Year's worth of Snaps out of one before it wears out... So 1 Snap-Cap for home fry fire practice and the other 4 go into the range bag. The price is really No big deal.

 

[Titegroups]

There are many different designs of firearms, some designs will tolerate dry firing better than others so blanket statements don't always work.

 

[hobby-gunsmith]

[QUOTEI use A-Zoom and can get about a Year's worth of Snaps out of one before it wears out... So 1 Snap-Cap for home fry fire practice and the other 4 go into the range bag. The price is really No big deal.[/QUOTE]

Spend the extra few bucks and use snap caps or A-Zoom to dry fire. It is extra insurance for the possibility of a spring, firing pin or roll pin damage. When I purchased my Springfield XD-.40, I was dry firing without the aid of one of the practice rounds mentioned. The Roll pin that holds the striker assembly broke in half due to the pressure exerted from the striker. Springfield sent me a few extra and I have not had a problem since I started using A-Zoom caps. Also, they are great for practice in FTF and FTE exercises. Dry firing is the best thing you can practice on your sight alignment and trigger control excercises. Heck, even the pros dry fire for the same reason. Dry fire practice sessions should be about 15 minutes a day in your garage or room in your house with no live ammo in the same room your are practicing. Then, take that practice and use it on the range to gadge the amount of control and sight alignment with live ammo. Hope this helps in your dicision.

Nick

 

[scooter123]

Somebody please hand me a 4 x 4. Because it's pretty obvious that a bit of 1 x 3 inch poplar isn't enough to bring some sense to some of the hard heads who have posted.

First, about what that manual says. Try calling the manufacturer and talking to one of the Design Engineers or Repair Gunsmiths. Ask them if it's perfectly OK to dry fire 1 to 2 THOUSAND times per day without using snap caps. I expect that you will find the UNIVERSAL answer to that specific inquiry will be a resounding recomendation you use snap caps to protect the gun. These manuals were originally written well before the use of intensive dry fire practice became common. So, when the manual states that it's OK to dry fire on an empty chamber it's with the assumption that you are simply doing a function check, not standing in front of a mirror and snapping the trigger for hours on end. Yeah, the manuals should probably be re-written to take into account common practice today but Industrial Writers have become a rather rare breed and most manufacturers would rather have some clerk just copy an older manual and add some warnings the legal department wants added.

As for that recomendation to use a fired casing, think about it, it's ALREADY DIMPLED. As a result it's not going to absorb much energy at all from another firing pin strike.

Those who don't think that snap caps provide any protection should simply LISTEN to the sound of a dry fire with and without a snap cap in place. I am half deaf and I can immediately hear it when I forget to chamber a snap cap, instead of a bit of a thud I hear steel hitting steel. If you are not already aware of it, when hardened steel parts are hammered together they tend to fracture. So, sooner or later you will find that something in your firing pin mechanism will break if you continue to dry fire intensively without using a snap cap.

PS; function checks are fine for center fire guns, my warning SPECIFICALLY applies to those who are dry firing for practice. Please, if you are one of those spend the money for a set or two of snap caps.

 

[Lost Lake]

Industrial Writers have become a rather rare breed and most manufacturers would rather have some clerk just copy an older manual and add some warnings the legal department wants added.

Your point is noted, but somehow I don't believe ^^^That ^^^ statement is true.

If dry firing causes damage and the manufacturer puts verbiage in the owner's manual that dry firing is okay, and then that manufacturer offers a LIFETIME service plan, well, I'd think 30 seconds of editing before the books are printed could save the manufacturer a lot of warranty expense (shipping, disassembly, repair, function test, re-shipping) and a lot of bad feelings (my S&W broke so now I'm going to post on a forum about how S&W sucks and Glock is the best).

On the whole, I bet S&W doesn't see many broken firing pins.

 

[goldenbb]

I find it surprizing that so few fail to consider how things are designed to operate.

Think about it, most semi auto pistols use what is called an "inertial" firing pin. What this means is that the primer is ignited by the stored Inertia in the firing pin instead of direct force of the firing pin or striker hitting the firing pin. As for why this is done, it's a matter of safety, a hammer resting on an inertial firing pin cannot be driven far enough forward by a drop to cause a primer to ignite.

By DESIGN an Inertial firing pin is capable of stroking much further forward than the hammer or striker can drive it. As a result in many cases the ONLY thing that limits the forward motion is the return spring or the entrapment of the slide UNLESS THAT FIRING PIN CONTACTS A PRIMER. When there is a primer in place that firing pin will only travel far enough to collapse the primer on the anvil contained within the primer. This means that it won't overcompress the return spring, contact a cross roll pin that entraps the firing pin, or break out a larger hole in the breech face of the slide, WHEN IT'S FUNCTIONING AS IT'S DESIGNED TO. Specifically, when it's contacting a primer and having it's total stroke limited by that contact.

So, what is a Snap Cap? It is a substitute for a primer. Some use a spring loaded plate to soak up the strike of the firing pin and some use a hard type of rubber called Urethane. This hasn't been done by accident or as a gimmick, it's been done because gunsmiths have learned that when dry firing for trigger practice it's essential to use something that prevents the firing pin from "bottoming out".

Frankly, as an Engineer I get rather upset and impatient with people who abuse fine mechanical devices. Fact is that there are times when I'd like to give them a "Gibbs slap" hard enough to ring their bells. Those who think that their isn't any harm to dry firing without using a snap cap please have a friend or family member break a 1x3 piece of poplar across the back of your head and consider yourself "Gibbs slapped". Those who think that an already fired casing, or an empty casing with an eraser or silicone cement in the primer pocket, you also need to be "Gibbs Slapped". Because a cheap pencil eraser or silicone cement does NOT have the same hardness or rebound properties of a ENGINEERED URETHANE and an already dimpled primer is, gee whiz, ALREADY DIMPLED.

Come on folks. You have spent many hundreds and in some cases THOUSANDS of hard earned dollars on a finely crafted PRECISION machine and you are too stinking cheap to purchase a pack of snap caps for 15 bucks? I'll tell you right now, that's a false savings that borders as being nearly as foolish as never changing the oil in your car. Keep on with that practice and sooner or later you'll pay the price for your "economy" with a broken pistol.

You can't be much of an engineer if you think snap caps are a must-purchase item for dry-firing, though! If dry-firing were really a big problem, then you would see a lot more broken guns than there are.

"By DESIGN an Inertial firing pin is capable of stroking much further forward than the hammer or striker can drive it."

I think you're wrong about that. It is a very fixed distance--by design, and no more, otherwise you would be piercing primers.

Inertia: "amount of resistance to change in velocity" also
"an object will continue moving at its current velocity until some force causes its speed or direction to change"

So a fancy-speak inertial firing pin is a firing ping with a spring wrapped around it. Big freaking deal! Hey, you think maybe if that return spring wears out it might lead to a problem? Maybe the same as if you failed to maintain other parts on the weapon?

Also, on guns lacking a firing pin safety mechanism, you can easily discharge the weapon by hitting the resting hammer on something hard--like a concrete floor. So there goes that whole bit about the stored energy, it has none.

What sort of engineer are you? I read a lot of emotion in your arguments. It's probably best if you didn't try to convince people based on how you feel or by smacking them with big chunks of lumber if they happen to disagree with you. What's it to you what other people do with their guns, anyways?

I wouldn't want a gun that can't withstand many thousands of dry-fire cycles. If it can't take dry-firing, it isn't built right and it won't sustain real firing.

 

[TStick]

"By DESIGN an Inertial firing pin is capable of stroking much further forward than the hammer or striker can drive it."

I think you're wrong about that. It is a very fixed distance--by design, and no more, otherwise you would be piercing primers.

Someone hasn't ever disassembled a slide before. Ever.


Most of the rest of your gobbledygook is opinion and you are entitled to it; but the irony of you calling him not much of an engineer - then posting this, was just to much to let go.

 

[Lost Lake]

Also, on guns lacking a firing pin safety mechanism, you can easily discharge the weapon by hitting the resting hammer on something hard--like a concrete floor. So there goes that whole bit about the stored energy, it has none.

I am an engineer also, and I can't let this one go....

The weapon has stored energy as soon as it is lifted off the concrete floor.

 

[TStick]

I was going to let that pass, as I guess the argument could be made that the stored energy is in the weapon as a whole, and not specifically in the hammer. Also, and more importantly - the words all started to jumble up into an incoherent rambling by that point in the post.

You are more likely correct though; and it was simply a case of multiple factually incorrect statements made in a post where the poster calls someone else out as being not much of an engineer.

Did I mention I love irony?

 

[crofoot629]

Seems like I recently saw where Clint Smith commented on not liking Snap Caps as he'd seen them associated with ND's. I put a lot of stock in Mr. Smith's observations.

I've seen odd things. Like the night my Sgt cleaned his Model 36, reloaded it, aimed at the office wall and pulled the trigger. It was loud and there was Sheetrock dust. And poor Roger had the most confused look on his face I've ever seen. Just saying.

Emory