Early Bekearts - What is (and isn't) Known

[JSR III]

Bruce, unfortunately, that information is probably lost to time. If it weren't a .22, I might suggest that it is a police or military rack number which usually would suggest a larger caliber.

The 1-3000 stock sequence numbers (my term) that were supposedly applied to the bottom of the left stock panel show the order in which these guns were assembled.

Based on the data that I have collected over the past several years, I do not believe that these stock numbers were used after the 490 M.W. Robinson guns shipped in 1914. Their highest serial number was 208,416 and the next grouping of serial numbers that I have starts in the 220's. This group starts later in 1914 and other than a few anomalies with stocks most likely harvested from an earlier gun, I show NO stock sequence numbers after the 490 Robinson guns in the high 207 and low 208 serial range. The highest stock sequence number that I have recorded is 2582. Nothing has shown up between 2600 and 3000 so far.

 

[bruce5781]

Thank you, James. I knew it was way too late to be a stock sequence number, but will keep hoping someone might notice it and be able to shed some light.

Thanks,
Bruce

 

[bruce5781]

No. 458257. Great shooter condition. Aside from being dry and dirty and having some obvious holster wear on both sides of the barrel, it's pretty nice.
All numbers match...matching number penciled on stock.

 

[Hondo44]

Thank you, James. I knew it was way too late to be a stock sequence number, but will keep hoping someone might notice it and be able to shed some light.

Thanks,
Bruce

Bruce,

I agree with James. That stock number is unusual and lost to time. However, this guns is worth getting a letter for, and may shed some light on the stock number based on where it was shipped and to whom.

The other reason for the letter is the later style sights as I mentioned in an earlier post: although I agree that the serial number would typically indicate a shipping date of mid 1919 as James posted, the sights and target stocks are of the post change order Aug.29, 1923 style that deleted the sq butt RP convex top stocks, returning to 2 screw target stocks but with convex tops, and w/o medallions as standard. And from the original Paine bead front sight w/U-Notch to a Patridge w/Square Notch.

Therefore you may have an original gun that was just assembled and shipped later than the 276XXX s/n would indicate.

Are the stocks numbered to the gun? Also is the grip frame rebated on the backstrap which is needed for the Reg. Police type stocks?

 

[bruce5781]

Hondo,
I purchased this one Thursday from Merz Antique Guns and should have in hand sometime this week. I will check the stocks and backstrap. I do intend to letter it, not only to see when it might have shipped and in what configuration, but where it shipped in hopes that it might shed some light on who made that hammer. I don't believe this was a pistol purchased for casual plinking.
Thanks,
Bruce

 

[bruce5781]

Does anyone have No. 164005, Stock sequence No. 1837 in their data base ?

 

[bruce5781]

No. 138337, Stock sequence No. 283
60% finish, honest wear, no pitting.
Action is right and tight, great bore.
Serial number clearly penciled inside right stock.

 

[Masterpiece]

No. 138337, Stock sequence No. 283
60% finish, honest wear, no pitting.
Action is right and tight, great bore.
Serial number clearly penciled inside right stock.

bruce5781,

Congrats on your New Acquisition!! Also...On the outside chance you're not already aware...Your New Acquisition is one of the First Production Run "Bekeart-Shipped" .22/32 Heavy Frame Target Revolvers!! It shipped to Bekeart's Shop June 30th,1911 & was one of 60 Revolvers included in that shipment!!

 

[bruce5781]

bruce5781,

Congrats on your New Acquisition!! Also...On the outside chance you're not already aware...Your New Acquisition is one of the First Production Run "Bekeart-Shipped" .22/32 Heavy Frame Target Revolvers!! It shipped to Bekeart's Shop June 30th,1911 & was one of 60 Revolvers included in that shipment!!

Thanks. You all gave me confirmation on it being "shipped" back in February before I bought it. I did not realize until just now that I posted a few photos of it at that time.
The only difference I see from the info given at that time is that it has a Sheard front sight on it.

 

[Masterpiece]

Thanks. You all gave me confirmation on it being "shipped" back in February before I bought it. I did not realize until just now that I posted a few photos of it at that time.
The only difference I see from the info given at that time is that it has a Sheard front sight on it.

bruce5781,

Sorry about that...Guess my old memory's even worse off then I thought...Especially so given I was one of those in that discussion that noted it was Originally shipped to Bekeart...Oops!!

As far as the Frt. Sight...Being it now has a Gold Sheard Front Sight...I'd have to say it was likely changed somewhere in the course of it's use!!

Not Positively, but Highly Likely given I can't recall ever seeing..Or Owning...One of the First Production Run .22/32 HFT's having this Sight...All I have observed or owned had Paine Frt. Sights with U-Notch Rear Sight Blades!!

Also...As an aside...Most all of the Sights (Frt. & Rear) on the early ones I've owned that I've removed to check...Have been Serial-Numbered to the Revolver!! If you'd care to check sometime...Might verify if it shipped with that Frt. Sight is why I made mention!! The Frt. Sights also generally have Proud Sight Pins....Which yours does not!!

 

[JSR III]

Just to add to the confusion, my database shows that you cannot use hard and fast dates regarding stocks or sights. The fact that this model had an engineering change to make the patridge front sight and square notch rear sight standard, does not eliminate the fact that these sights were available by request prior to the change.

I have examples of guns prior to the "date" that have the patridge front sight and enough examples that would make one believe that they are not just anomalies.

I also have guns with non medallion stocks both from the regulation police style era and the two screw target extension era that cross over these supposed dates. And again one must remember that the two screw style were available all during the regulation police style era so you can find one with original two screw stocks when all other guns shipped at that time had the reg police style.

As Roy Jinks has said a million times, we collector/accumulators want everything tied up with red ribbons with exact changes tied to exact dates. Smith & Wesson was making guns and not collectibles and was only interested in getting guns out the door and money in.

 

[JSR III]

If anyone has one of these guns and has not supplied the full serial number and a photo of each side, please feel free to do so. I will add the information to my database. If you don't wish to put it on the open forum, please feel free to email me or PM me with the info.

Likewise, feel free to inquire about any .22/32 and I will gladly check my database for you and share any information that I have accumulated. I don't keep names only information about the guns.

I track serial number, stock sequence number (1-3,000), shipping date, shipping destination, stocks, front sight, recessed chambers or not, condition, style extractor knob, logo size and placement, addition of Made in USA roll stamp, and any unusual features such as bobbed hammer and guns with serial number above 500,000 whether trigger is smooth or grooved.

 

[dpast32]

Hello Guys, I too have what I initially though to be one of the Bekeart models. However, after a little research, I now realize that it is not one of the original Bekeart order examples, but one of the later, standard production "22/32 Hand Ejector" models. The serial # is 2213XX, as found on the frontstrap. It has all the usual features of the early production examples, & came with the "Bekeart" style grips. I can't report if the grips are numbered or marked in any way, as I removed them to prevent any damage. As soon as I'm able to dig them up, I'll report my findings here on the Forum. Pleas stay tuned.

Best, dpast32

 

[JSR III]

I don't have a 2213XX in my database so would love the details.

 

[bruce5781]

If anyone has one of these guns and has not supplied the full serial number and a photo of each side, please feel free to do so. I will add the information to my database. If you don't wish to put it on the open forum, please feel free to email me or PM me with the info.

Likewise, feel free to inquire about any .22/32 and I will gladly check my database for you and share any information that I have accumulated. I don't keep names only information about the guns.

I track serial number, stock sequence number (1-3,000), shipping date, shipping destination, stocks, front sight, recessed chambers or not, condition, style extractor knob, logo size and placement, addition of Made in USA roll stamp, and any unusual features such as bobbed hammer and guns with serial number above 500,000 whether trigger is smooth or grooved.

Is there any rhyme or reason to logo placement ?
I have one on left side, one on right side, and one with no logo at all.
Thanks,
Bruce

 

[JSR III]

Bruce, logo size and placement or lack thereof is all a matter of dates.

From my database:
138226 shipped in June 1911 has a small logo on the left
through
165954 shipped in June 1912 has a small logo on the left.

207926 shipped January 1914 now has a medium logo on the right (this is the beginning of the 490 gun shipment to M.W. Robinson)

270836 shipped May 1919 has no logo.

279468 has no logo

341757 shipped 6/26/1921 has a small logo on the left.

So you can see, logo location and size has changed through the years.

 

[Masterpiece]

The fact that this model had an engineering change to make the patridge front sight and square notch rear sight standard, does not eliminate the fact that these sights were available by request prior to the change.

I have examples of guns prior to the "date" that have the patridge front sight and enough examples that would make one believe that they are not just anomalies.

James,

I fully agree there isn't a tried & true method of knowing which style Sight Blade was used on the .22/32 HFT's prior to the Engineering Order in 1923 which noted them to be built using Patridge Frt. Sight Blades with a Square-Notch Rear Sight Blade!!

Although it has been my experience...And is why I "Specifically" made mention in My Earlier Post referring to (bruce5781's) "Bekeart-Shipped" Revolver...I suspect the Frt. Sight Blade...For the reasons mentioned...Likely not to be Original given I have never crossed paths in all my years of collecting .22/32 HFTs seen a First Production Run .22/32 HFT I've ever owned or observed to have a Sight Combination other than a Paine Frt. Sight with a U-Notch Rear Blade that didn't have the Sights Serial-Numbered to the Revolver!!

And this is also why...Should he have interest in doing so...Check to see if the Frt. Sight on His Revolver has a Serial No. matching the Frame's Serial No. to verify the possibility of it being Original!!

I do realize of course anything's possible...Although in this case...Being that Early of a Revolver find it "Highly Unlikely'' you'll find many...If any...First Production Run .22/32 HFTs to have been originally fitted with Sight Blades other than what I've noted!!

 

[dpast32]

Hi James, I'll be happy to provide some details on my example. Give me a bit to find the original grips, & I'll report back here with all the relevant data. If there's anything specific you need, please just let me know. Stay tuned,

dpast32 ( [email protected] )

 

[bruce5781]

James,

I fully agree there isn't a tried & true method of knowing which style Sight Blade was used on the .22/32 HFT's prior to the Engineering Order in 1923 which noted them to be built using Patridge Frt. Sight Blades with a Square-Notch Rear Sight Blade!!

Although it has been my experience...And is why I "Specifically" made mention in My Earlier Post referring to (bruce5481's) "Bekeart-Shipped" Revolver...I suspect the Frt. Sight Blade...For the reasons mentioned...Likely not to be Original given I have never crossed paths in all my years of collecting .22/32 HFTs seen a First Production Run .22/32 HFT I've ever owned or observed to have a Sight Combination other than a Paine Frt. Sight with a U-Notch Rear Blade that didn't have the Sights Serial-Numbered to the Revolver!!

And this is also why...Should he have interest in doing so...Check to see if the Frt. Sight on His Revolver has a Serial No. matching the Frame's Serial No. to verify the possibility of it being Original!!

I do realize of course anything's possible...Although in this case...Being that Early of a Revolver find it "Highly Unlikely'' you'll find many...If any...First Production Run .22/32 HFTs to have been originally fitted with Sight Blades other than what I've noted!!

I will say that I really like the Sheard on this a lot. Hats off to whoever changed it out.
Although these 22/32's are a little small in my hand, they are a pure joy to shoot. I find myself grabbing one of these up more and more, and have started several new shooters out with them.

Hi James, I'll be happy to provide some details on my example. Give me a bit to find the original grips, & I'll report back here with all the relevant data. If there's anything specific you need, please just let me know. Stay tuned,

dpast32 ( [email protected] )

 

[JSR III]

Although these 22/32's are a little small in my hand, they are a pure joy to shoot.

Exactly why Bekeart thought that the M frame .22 revolver of the day was even smaller still. Hence his recommendation to produce the .22 on the I frame that beforehand was only used on the "larger" .32 caliber arms. Also why it was termed the Heavy Frame Target as compared to the tiny M frame revolver.

IMHO, the .22/32 is the predecessor of the Model 17 that became one of the cornerstone revolvers in the S&W line.