Early Bekearts - What is (and isn't) Known
- Thread starter Goony
- Start date
With that serial, seems like the grips should be stamped. Have you looked on the inside of the right grip for a penciled serial number ?
Beautiful pistol, regardless.
Stamped since 1857, stock #s, always right side only, changed to penciled #s c. 1900 and back to stamped #s in 1929; numbering discontinued ~ late 1970s.
Pre war penciled S/Ns are in the top half of the stock near the backstrap and read with the stock oriented with the back edge down. Sometimes a photo like this
one is needed to "see" the penciled # as shown below.
NOTE: Observing serial #s for accuracy or even existence, especially 100 year old penciling on wood stocks, requires magnification, bright light, and an attitude
that it is there!
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dpast32
Member
Hello All, Here's my S&W Bekeart style, "22/32 H.E." data, as promised. My example, SERIAL # 2213XX, high polish blued finish, w/ the usual, 'Bekeart' style chk'd wooden stocks w/ silver S&W medallions. My GRIPS do NOT appear to be numbered, either by pencil, and or stamping. I looked under a good light source, along with a magnifying glass, but could not find any #'s, on either grip. The BARREL is just UNDER 6", & actually measures out at 5 & 15/16" of so. I guess some would call it at 6", but just to be safe I reported as measured. ( LAST patent date on top of bbl is Sept. 14 '09 )The REAR SIGHT is stock, early S&W adjustable, & the FRONT SIGHT is a standard, somewhat high, pinned, fixed blade. The RIGHT SIDE-PLATE exhibits the standard S&W logo, in a circle, which measures 7/8" in width, right across the middle of it. ( NOTE that this revolver DOES NOT have the standard, "Made in USA" marking on the lower right side-plate, just above the trigger guard. ) Just as a point of interest, I never realized that these relatively early S&W's were mfg'd with a transfer bar type of action, rather than the usual hammer mounted firing pin. This 22/32 H.E. is an unusual piece for me, as my usual collector interest in S&W's tended to be on law enforcement contract pieces & the like. This particular S&W was part of my Father In Law's collection, & was passed on to me. It is rumored to have been rescued from a burning building by one of the Firemen on the scene, who in turn gave it my my Father In Law. Luckily, it appears to have not suffered any damage at all from the fire, & is still in quite nice shape. Well, hopefully the above information will be of some use. If there is any additional, more specific data I might be able assist with, please feel free to ask.
Best, dpast32
Best, dpast32
That is great information. If you could PM me or email the last 2 digits of the serial number, I will add it to my database. Based on the serial number, your gun should have shipped in the spring of 1915 as most in my database starting with 221 did. Although like all S&W's I also have one reported to have shipped in October of 1914 with a slightly higher serial number. The silver medallion stocks on your gun are not original as they did not appear with regularity until they went into the 500,000 serial number block.
The logo is correct for that serial and date range and is what I refer to as the medium logo on the right. The Made in USA roll stamp was not applied until 1923 and shows up in my database in the high 300,000 serial number range.
As Roy says, I hope that helps...
PS: It is possible that the reported fire scorched the stocks and that is why they are the later silver medallion style.
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Skeetr57
Member
Also, the .22/.32 HFT does not have a transfer bar, merely a frame mounted firing pin. When a gun has a transfer bar, it is a separate piece that is inserted between the hammer and the firing pin by movement of the trigger. S&W never used a transfer bar system in a production gun so far as I am aware.
Correct, Smith never used a transfer bar. Hand electors used various types of hammer block bars. And not until after WW II on any 22/32 models
when they were fitted with the current sliding bar hammer block.
dpast32
Member
THANK'S Guys, I just assumed that's what it was. I warned everyone that these early models were not my particular specialty. I ended up with mine by default.
dpast32
dpast32
Be careful not to shoot it then....you might wind up with more than one [emoji1]
donadler
Member
I should have said the grips were not number stamped on the bottom. I will check for them being numbered on the inside soon. Thanks.
Hi Don,
Cool, likely than they're original stocks and still of Circassion walnut! Because that's in real beautiful condition. Although they've been shortened a 1/4" or so.
BTW, my intention is not to criticize or be a nit picker, just FYI. As a former Boy Scout Scoutmaster for several years, I couldn't help notice that the flag in the background of your avatar is hung backwards. The context isn't perfectly clear, but if it's hung vertically on a wall as it looks, the "Union" (the blue field) should be on the left as people face the flag, i.e., over your right shoulder in the photo. The Union is always on the flag's own right side as the flag faces people.
The only exception is when the flag is hung vertically or horizontally outstretched on a rope over a street or open space, the Union is to be to the North or East edge of the flag (depending on its direction of orientation).
Cool, likely than they're original stocks and still of Circassion walnut! Because that's in real beautiful condition. Although they've been shortened a 1/4" or so.
BTW, my intention is not to criticize or be a nit picker, just FYI. As a former Boy Scout Scoutmaster for several years, I couldn't help notice that the flag in the background of your avatar is hung backwards. The context isn't perfectly clear, but if it's hung vertically on a wall as it looks, the "Union" (the blue field) should be on the left as people face the flag, i.e., over your right shoulder in the photo. The Union is always on the flag's own right side as the flag faces people.
The only exception is when the flag is hung vertically or horizontally outstretched on a rope over a street or open space, the Union is to be to the North or East edge of the flag (depending on its direction of orientation).
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That gun shipped to E.K. Tryon, Phil PA on 7/11/1911 so very early and during the Bekeart era of shipping.
According to my database, the stocks should have a sequence number on the left stock bottom of somewhere in the 300 to 700 range. If there is no number impressed in the stock bottom, then it was either a factory boo boo, they were sanded off or they are period replacements but not from the Bekeart program. Remember, the two screw extension style stocks were around before Bekeart ordered these guns as they were available on the single shots.
Don, is the front sight a Paine or some other type of bead? It almost looks copper or gold in color in your photo. It may have a name stamped on the side.
I do have guns in my database with sights other than the Paine style that was typically supplied by the factory. Again, S&W would do just about anything reasonable for the right $$$$.
I do have guns in my database with sights other than the Paine style that was typically supplied by the factory. Again, S&W would do just about anything reasonable for the right $$$$.
Hope I'm not breaking the rules but Woodlawn Boys just listed the Bekeart to end all Bekearts.
Regards,
Bruce
Regards,
Bruce
Wow! The very lowest numbered Bekeart # 138226, wasn't even on the list of known Bekeart serial #s. Stock # 35 shows it was assembled* 35th.
*Corrected to change shipped to assembled.
*Corrected to change shipped to assembled.
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Masterpiece
Member
Jim,
While there's always a plausible possibility it was the 35th .22/.32 Heavy Frame shipped...Remember the No. stamped on the Butt of the Stocks...In actuality...Indicates it was the 35th one assembled...Not necessarily the 35th shipped!!
And for those having interest...138226 shipped to a Prominent Dealer in New York City 9 days after the 1st Shipment left for Phil Bekeart's Shop June 7th,1911!!
Thx Masterpiece,
For some reason I keep stating that wrong. Oh wait, now I remember the reason........age!
For some reason I keep stating that wrong. Oh wait, now I remember the reason........age!
donadler
Member
Shot of front sight
Here is a photo.
Don, is the front sight a Paine or some other type of bead? It almost looks copper or gold in color in your photo. It may have a name stamped on the side.
I do have guns in my database with sights other than the Paine style that was typically supplied by the factory. Again, S&W would do just about anything reasonable for the right $$$$.
Here is a photo.
Attachments
While this is the lowest serial numbered frame in the block of 1050 guns produced in the first run from 138226 to 139275, it was not shipped to Bekeart so not on the Bekeart list.
The first group of 30 guns shipped to Bekeart went out on 6/7/1911 and the lowest numbered frame was 138227.
138226 was shipped on 6/16/1911 and went to Von Lengerke & Detmold, NYC along with a bunch of guns that went to many non Bekeart distributors.
Since the gun mentioned by bruce in the auction came with a maroon box with a Bekeart end label, it still begs the question as to whether all of these guns shipped in Bekeart labeled boxes even when not going to Bekeart.
I asked David at Woodlawn Boys if the box was serial numbered to the gun but unfortunately the serial number was not clear so was possibly added at a later date.
This also reminds us that although Bekeart is credited with the design of this new revolver and it was only built by S&W because Bekeart ordered 1,000 guns, it still does not explain why early on either Bekeart or S&W knew that he would not take them all as shipments to other outlets occurred within 9 days.
PS: I did a quick unofficial count and around 38 guns shipped on 6/16/1911 to other dealers so the 35th assembled could very well have been the 35th shipped but since it was in a group of 30+ guns, who knows for sure.
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James,
I highly suspect that the original arrangement between Bekeart and S&W was that Bekeart was only on the hook for the full first production order of 1000 if they didn't sell. Because apparently there was no intention to restrict all 1000 just for shipping to Bekeart.
Once the 1000 were sold to any dealers, Bekeart was relieved of the commitment, which clearly came very quickly based on other dealer deliveries early on. Just IMHO but it makes sense and seems to have been a fair deal all the way around.
I highly suspect that the original arrangement between Bekeart and S&W was that Bekeart was only on the hook for the full first production order of 1000 if they didn't sell. Because apparently there was no intention to restrict all 1000 just for shipping to Bekeart.
Once the 1000 were sold to any dealers, Bekeart was relieved of the commitment, which clearly came very quickly based on other dealer deliveries early on. Just IMHO but it makes sense and seems to have been a fair deal all the way around.
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