Early problems with S&W stainless steel

[aterry33]

I have heard that there are some issues with the stainless steel used in early S&W revolvers. My understanding is that this was limited mostly to the model 60s produced during the 1960s. But some people have indicated the problem also occurred in some of the K Frame revolvers.

The problems I have heard described include galling and a type of steel that swelled.

Does anyone have any information on this, and what guns were affected?

 

[Sebago Son]

Early S&W Stainless....

I've read that the issues with early 60's were due to similar alloys being used in the lockworks as in the frames. Electo-cross deposition was determined to be the cause.

My early Model 60 ND is in the 477,000 range. Mr. Jinks indicates that it was made in November of 1966. The Standard Catalog tells us that production of the Model 60 commenced in 1965. I believe that there were very few 60's built in that year...

The hammer, trigger, Hand and rebound slide appear to be made of Oilite perhaps in an effort to eliminate this issue.

If it is Oilite I'll bet that this was prohibitively expensive, and may have been the reason that the retail cost of these guns was substantially higher that their carbon steel Model 36 counterparts. It is also reasonable to believe that this is why some guns in this same approximate era have color hardened carbon steel lockworks.

Later 60's and in fact all Stainless guns until the advent of MIM, used hammers and triggers made of carbon steel with a flash chrome plating and this effectively over came the problem.

Also, it is true that early 66's had an issue with cylinders locking up during long strings of rapid shooting. This was a design function and once the cylinder gas seal was moved to the cylinder from the yoke with the -1 guns this problem was eliminated as well.

Drew

 

[Sebago Son]

In 1965 I was just starting to become interested in S&W, mostly due to my father taking me and my brother to every gunshow and shooting event within a 100 mile radius. Dad was an Engineer with General Electric that the time and his circle of friends included many technical folks. The then new Model 60 caused quite a stir... I can remember the sputtering about the price and not being able to find one as most were going over to SE Asia at the time...

 

[aterry33]

Nice pictures Sebago!

 

[dfariswheel]

Jeff Cooper wrote about one early Model 60 problem.
There was little knowledge or experience about stainless steel in guns, and they chose a tool grade stainless.
It was so tough it ate their tooling up at a ferocious rate.
They soon changed to a lesser grade of stainless steel to save the tooling.

Cooper suggested that these early Model 60's were so tough, they could have probably been safely chambered for the .357, even though they weren't heat treated to that level.

 

[dant]

what 'defaris' said in a nutshell, basically,and I may add in the words from Mr Dan Wesson himself in our visit with him in May of 1973, the fact "aside from the tooling.machining ,etc., the metallurgy of stainless alloys at that time was the rate of expansion and contraction of them ,versus carbon steel (4140 chrome-moly, the prefferred gun alloy) the rate of contraction was slower in the stainless, and thus could cause "binding" of the parts when they got too hot, and yes, the police found this to be true with the model 66's.......
the nature of the beast of stainless affected MANY gun companies and forced some out of business......as noted above, like alloys of stainless can 'gall' so had to use 'unlike' ( different) alloys for say a frame and the slide........(Randal and AMT come to mind)
Todays alloys of stainless are engineered to some awesome specs and high pressure stuff way beyond that of the early 'stainless ' steel built guns..........just look at the 460/500 s and the Lady Smith, or J frame 357 magnums snubbies............

 

[rburg]

I've only got one M60 left, and its 410014 serial number. It appears to have the in-service modification to flash chrome hammer and trigger. Its been my assumption all along that an original and unmodified gun with stainless hammer and trigger would be the preferred one for a collector.

While I've never been tempted to test it, I wonder if a magnet would stick to the flash chromed parts and not to the stainless parts. I know some stainless alloys are magnetic. Anybody got a clue?

Also, does anyone know the approximate cutoff for the polished guns? Or when the brushed/matte finish began?

 

[zachomega]

Stainless will or won't be magnetic depending on the amount of nickel in it. If it has nickel, it will be less magnetic.

However, cold working can make it somewhat more magnetic again. Some heat treating procedures will also diminish the magnetic properties.

Basically, the 300 series of stainless is less magnetic as it has nickel whereas the 400 series tends to be magnetic as it does not have nickel.

I work with stainless and magnetics at my job so this has been a hot topic lately.

I'd imagine most stainless you see in guns is probably going to be magnetic. Nickel is expensive. Plus from what I understand, generally, the 400 series stainless materials are harder.

-Zach

I've only got one M60 left, and its 410014 serial number. It appears to have the in-service modification to flash chrome hammer and trigger. Its been my assumption all along that an original and unmodified gun with stainless hammer and trigger would be the preferred one for a collector.

While I've never been tempted to test it, I wonder if a magnet would stick to the flash chromed parts and not to the stainless parts. I know some stainless alloys are magnetic. Anybody got a clue?

Also, does anyone know the approximate cutoff for the polished guns? Or when the brushed/matte finish began?

 

[jcelect]

Magnetic SS!

While I was in Uncle Sam's canoe club I operated large horse power electric induction motors which REQUIRE a magnetic field to work. These motors were made of 100% 400 series stainess steel, were water cooled, and used water for lubrication of the bearings! Also these motors operated at temps above 400degs F! The major problem with SS is it is very soft. The "galling" of rubbing parts is usually caused by the lack of any lub. Nuts and bolts have a tendency to gall the threads very easy. When S&W introduced the SS gun their endeavor was to produce a gun that did not corrode easy in a harsh environment so they made the gun of 100% SS, hammer, trigger, sights and other parts! The problem with a SS hammer and trigger is the single action sear! The SA sear rounded over in a time period of a very low round count causing "push off", an unsafe problem in any gun! They replaced the hammer and the trigger with hardened steel ones and flashed chromed them which is also a hardening process and a coloring process!
jcelect

 

[fyimo]

Nice pictures Sebago!

+1 on ther great photography

 

[H Richard]

Back when the Mod 66's first came out, I experienced the "lock up" problem. After about 3 cylinderfulls of .357 ammo, fired in relatively rapid fire time, it would lock up. The heat build up would dissapate after about 20-30 minutes and would then operate fine. I believe the fix was to replace the cylinder with one of a different alloy.

 

[jspick]

OK, this is the third time in 10 minutes I have learned something new!!!

I am about to go on overload, so I will go eat supper and come back for more.

John

 

[RichardZ]

Sorry to resurrect this - perhaps it has been addressed elsewhere - what would most of you think about a model 60 with stainless trigger and hammer that the owner wants as a shooter - ?it wouild seem dangerous to wait for a problem with single action?

Richard

 

[Protocall_Design]

Just change out the hammer and trigger to a flash chrome one.

 

[Lobster Picnic]

Why pay extra for an early all-stainless model if you want a shooter? Just go with the R series ND with flash chromed hammer and trigger.