Excessive slide to frame play?

[GetRekt]

Hi guys, for a decade I've been a glock guy. Just recently I picked up a shield 9mm for my wife and really, really enjoyed shooting it. I was also impressed with the quality and fit.

That purchase prompted me to buy an m&p pro 9mm for competition. Admittedly, I didn't look the gun over as well as I should have before leaving the shop. That's my fault. I was just assuming that the new pro would have the same fit as the shield.


Anyway, this gun has the most slop I've personally ever seen on a handgun. At the front of the slide, I can quite easily move the slide left to right a full 1/8 of an inch. The rear of the slide isn't as bad, but also has a lot of slop.


I'm worried about accuracy of course, but the slide to barrel lockup seems to be pretty good.


I can take a short video to illustrate what I'm talking about if that would help. I went to another local shop that has many smiths, and I handled 5 core models, none of which even had half the amount of slop mine has.

I want to love this gun, but I'm a little disappointed so far.

Thanks for any and all input.


John.

 

[Bob O]

Personally this kind of slop you're talking about (and vertical slide slop) really irritates me. It's what turned me away from the FN FNS 40 two years ago.

 

[RalphMP9FS]

An 1/8" total slide play is way too much. A 1/64"-1/32" is acceptable. I would like to see a video of that.

 

[GetRekt]

https://youtu.be/lyuEHkK4KP0


There is the link to the vid. Not sure how to embed on this forum from my phone. If someone could do that, I'd be grateful.

The largest measurement was right at 3/32, so not a full 1/8. The 1/8 was an eyeball estimate but the 3/32 was measured.


Thanks guys.

 

[RalphMP9FS]

I saw the video, and yes there's quite a bit of play. Being a 5" long barrel, I would imagine there's probably more designed play than a 4". As long as the barrel locks up tight, that play should not affect accuracy since you reacquire the sights each time you fire a round. I'm sure other people with more knowledge than me will chime in.

 

[MichiganScott]

Since no one has asked yet, "How does it shoot?"

If you can outshoot the gun, contact S&W.

 

[Bob O]

Watched the vid, I would not be happy at all with that amount of slop. Let us know how it shoots.

 

[GetRekt]

Just got back from the range. Initially, I was very disappointed. I got from "freedom munitions" in bulk for very cheap and I was shooting that. I went through just under 300 rounds of freedom munitions.

I was shooting low and left. Left is me almost certainly, due to the trigger. The low was definitely the gun. By low, I'm talking 6 inches at 5 yards. It got worse the further out I went.

The worst thing? I was getting multiple key hole hits. At 5 yards. I got my wife to snap some pics of the target as proof.

It seemed as the gun heated up, it got worse.




I shot all of the freedom munitions, then decided to shoot some of my completion ammo (I typically use blazer brass). The gun had cooled down at this point, but not sure that was a factor.

Anyway, with the blazer brass it seemed to be shooting exactly POA. At 7 yards I was able to shoot 4 rounds into the same hole basically, and that's off hand. That's the best shooting I've ever done with a pistol, ever.



So, now I'm confused. Is this the worst pistol I've ever had or the best? I'm thinking/hoping my troubles were just ammo related. I guess tomorrow in my match I'll find out.

It's worth noting, I switched out the stock sights to trijicon HDs. I was highly impressed with the accuracy on those last couple of magazines, but the accuracy with the freedom munitions was not even acceptable.


I absolutely have to change the trigger. It got lighter as I shot, but the feel is terrible. It's gritty, and mushy. Reset is non existent which will be a problem tomorrow.


Looking forward to hearing your guys opinion.

Thanks for the help and input, sincerely.

 

[Fred_G]

Hey, it is worth an email to Smith about the trigger. My M&P 9C went back to Smith because the dots fell out of the sights. I put a note in the box asking if they could do anything for the trigger pull and reset. Mine was like yours, kinda gritty with almost no reset.

They sent it back with new sights, and either a new trigger or they did something to mine. Much better trigger pull and a very noticeable reset.

 

[Whitwabit]

I just picked up a 40c and although it has a shorter barrel 3.58" .. there is only enough movement to tell it moves but only a few thousand of an inch can barely see the movement .. 180 gr white box was POA .. only have 100 rounds through it so far, just a week old .. Fathers Day present to myself !!

 

[Rastoff]

Left is me almost certainly, due to the trigger. The low was definitely the gun. By low, I'm talking 6 inches at 5 yards.

If you didn't shoot the gun from a rest, this assessment on accuracy is only anecdotal. Even the low part could be you.

Even when going to the other ammo, it could be you. You had gained a lot of experience with the gun and could simply have been shooting better. I'm not saying that's definitely what happened, it's just a possibility.

I have seen shooters drop shots 6" or more at 3 and 5 yards. They complain that their gun is terrible and must be repaired. Then another shooter uses the same gun/ammo and hits close to the center.

That's not to say there isn't a problem with the gun. I'm just commenting on what I've seen.

The side-to-side play doesn't look right. However, it won't affect accuracy. As long as the barrel is locked up tight in the slide, it will be accurate. Because the sights are on the slide and the barrel is not moving in relation to the slide, it should shoot wherever the sights are aligned to.

Of course S&W will send you a shipping label and take a look at it for free. Just give them a call, tell them what you've noticed and they'll turn it around in about two weeks.

 

[PirateJim]

I just went in the bedroom and wiggled the slide of my Pro Series 40L. It wiggles, though I won't guess how much. If is was a M1911 I wouldn't anticipate being able to hit the narrow side of a barn. Fortunatey, I've already decided my Pro's a great shooter, though I have not been shooting competitively.

Shoot yours some more with decent ammo. If all is well, never wiggle the slide like that again. If not, send it to S&W for repairs.

 

[GetRekt]

If you didn't shoot the gun from a rest, this assessment on accuracy is only anecdotal. Even the low part could be you.

Even when going to the other ammo, it could be you. You had gained a lot of experience with the gun and could simply have been shooting better. I'm not saying that's definitely what happened, it's just a possibility.

I have seen shooters drop shots 6" or more at 3 and 5 yards. They complain that their gun is terrible and must be repaired. Then another shooter uses the same gun/ammo and hits close to the center.

That's not to say there isn't a problem with the gun. I'm just commenting on what I've seen.

The side-to-side play doesn't look right. However, it won't affect accuracy. As long as the barrel is locked up tight in the slide, it will be accurate. Because the sights are on the slide and the barrel is not moving in relation to the slide, it should shoot wherever the sights are aligned to.

Of course S&W will send you a shipping label and take a look at it for free. Just give them a call, tell them what you've noticed and they'll turn it around in about two weeks.

I appreciate the input, but let me be clear I am far from a novice handgun shooter. I shoot about 1500 rounds each month, and I have been for years. I am very proficient at handguns and don't have a problem with accuracy, at all. I can provide video evidence to that fact although I know that's mostly irrelevant to the discussion. Also like I said before, when shooting the blazer brass I was able to group 4 shots right on top of each other off hand, at 7 yards. It didn't happen gradually. It went from not being able to group at all to dead on accurate. Instantly.

Let me make it clear, the shooting didn't get better gradually. It went from so bad it made me mad, to literally POA/POI in one mag change. I shot around 300 rounds of the **** ammo, then one box of the blazer. That last box was the only time I was ever able to shoot the thing accurately.

No one has mentioned anything about the key holing. That's one of the things I'm most concerned about.


Also, to clear this up some more, I wasn't dropping shots, meaning some of the rounds went low. ALL of the rounds were low, and me raising my POA up is the only thing that fixed it. Switching back to a glock 19 (which I also shot) I was more or less right on POA.

I'm still hoping that for whatever reason this gun just didn't like the freedom munitions. Seeing a keyhole at 5 yards is very, very alarming to say the least. If the blazer brass and other ammo shoots fine then I'll be a happy camper.

To the guns credit I didn't have any malfunctions, so that's good.


The play bothers the hell out of me, but from what I've read there's basically nothing that S&W will do about it. A couple of members here have made threads saying that smith basically sent the gun back saying it's within spec. That's not encouraging.

 

[Rastoff]

I wasn't trying to say you were a novice. I was just recommending shooting from a rest.

Yours is indeed a strange development. There shouldn't be that much of a change simply due to ammo. I wish you were close to me so we could do some experimenting.

Do you have a pic of the key holes?

 

[Muss Muggins]

I find it very difficult to believe there is a 5-6" POA difference at 5-7 yards in different handgun ammunition . . .

 

[GetRekt]

Here's a couple pics. Notice how many low fliers there are, and in general how loose the groups are. This is fairly rapid fire since it was practice for my match tomorrow, but even with rapid fire I'm accurate. Not tooting my own horn, just for the sake of discussion.


The shot under the bullseye (low and left, another bullet hole close to it) is one of the ones that key holed. I was so stunned that I stopped and got my wife to snap a picture of it. That is absolutely not two bullet holes either. At this point I was getting frustrated so I slowed my shooting way down. That is one of 2 key holes I got. The fairly nice group on the bottom target is from the glock 19, rapid fire. I checked to make sure I could still group, and I could, but even with the glock the groups were large - but it wasn't throwing shots all over the place.

With the glock 19 at 7 yards I can lay a whole mag in a 2 inch group even shooting fast. So a group like that is uncharacteristic and pretty loose.








Notice how there are shots basically all over the place. This was the case until I switched to blazer, and then it became the most accurate pistol I had ever shot. Given I only had 1 fifty round box of the blazer, but the whole box seemed to go smoothly.


Just so you know I'm not just making things up, here's a vid of me laying shot after shot in a right group pretty quickly with the 19. I only post it to show I actually can shoot ok. This is 7 yards. No fliers.

http://youtu.be/W05s4or0BMM

 

[Muss Muggins]

Did you press the alleged keyhole in the target back together from behind to see what the hole actually looks like?

 

[GetRekt]

Did you press the alleged keyhole in the target back together from behind to see what the hole actually looks like?

Yes, I inspected it at length just because I was initially confused/curious. I've shot these shoot n' sees for many many years. I'm pretty familiar with what typical bullet holes look like, and that's why I caught it.


This was the second and only other keyhole I got. This was the very first round fired into this particular shoot n see incedentally, and also the first round of this mag.

 

[Rastoff]

Here's a couple pics. Notice how many low fliers there are, and in general how loose the groups are.

I'm assuming that all the holes in the Shoot-N-C are with the Blazer, is that correct?

Yes, the holes in the larger target make up a very loose group. However, I don't see any fliers. Allow me to explain what I mean. In typical target shooting parlance, the term "flier" denotes a shot that is atypical from the rest. So, if you had a 3" group that was low and left and then one shot that was high and right, the high/right shot would be considered a flier. This picture is a demonstration of what I mean (pulled from a random source on the internet):

The one hole in the 8 ring would be considered a flier.

In your pictures I don't see any fliers, just an open group. This is not a comment on your shooting. I'm just defining what I think of when I hear the term flier. It's not uncommon to see even an experienced shooter with a new gun, especially the M&P, start with very open groups. This is why I suggest shooting from a rest to diagnose problems with accuracy. Using a rest helps eliminate the human factor. Let's face it, none of use can hold perfectly still.

With the glock 19 at 7 yards I can lay a whole mag in a 2 inch group even shooting fast.

Do you have a picture of one of these groups? You're a really good shooter and this is world class performance. I would love to have you join us in this little fun shooting exercise: http://smith-wessonforum.com/concea...746-rastoffs-challenge-dropping-gauntlet.html It will be easy for you and I'd love to see how you'd shoot it with your G19. They are nice guns and I'm thinking of getting one myself.



The bullet tumbling issue is a poser. Did you have any that looked like they key-holed with the Blazer ammo? Again, in case you missed it, were all the holes on the Shoot-N-C done with the Blazer ammo?

 

[MichiganScott]

If I had $1.00 for each post by an experienced shooter that was hitting low-left and insisting that it was the gun and not the shooter, I could buy another M&P.

By the way, the sights on these things are designed to have the front dot on point of aim, not 6 O'clock. Image #3 is correct.