Excessive slide to frame play?

[Magload]

Well respectfully I was getting foot wide groups at 7 yards, I don't consider that acceptable accuracy. Especially when I can repeatedly get 3 inch groups with my tiny little shield 9mm.


Also a little tidbit that I forgot to add in this whole time. The shield was accurate.....even with the suspect ammo.


Anyway, yesterday I took it back to the gun shop and left with a 34. I'm happy.

I must agree that is petty bad at 7 yds and gratz on the new gun hope the LGS didn't stick it to you on the trade.

 

[GetRekt]

I must agree that is petty bad at 7 yds and gratz on the new gun hope the LGS didn't stick it to you on the trade.

I paid 100 bucks, but considering I put trjicon HD's on the smith before I shot it I actually lost around 220.

 

[Magload]

I paid 100 bucks, but considering I put trjicon HD's on the smith before I shot it I actually lost around 220.

Ah it was probably worth the money just to be happy. Life is to short to have to shoot a gun you don't like or shoot well. Then for some it is just fun to meet the challenge of getting a bad group smaller. Don

 

[tonesurfer]

Let us know how the G34 works.

 

[attrapereves]

Yeah, people can defend S&W all they want. But the fact of the matter is that there are other handguns on the market, some of which are actually cheaper than the M&P (Walther PPX as ugly as it is). Yet they don't suffer from the same plague of accuracy issues as the full size 9mm models.

I think the problem with the pistol is that it was designed for the 40, then the 9mm. Which is why the 40 model works fine.

 

[WR Moore]

Plague? Back when we adopted the M&P40 in 2006, the LE sales rep admitted that the M&P9 was the more accurate pistol.

I haven't seen an M&P9 with accuracy issues, mine included. I still shoot competitively, so I see them frequently. Don't deny there may be some out there, but there are going to be those cases with all brands.

 

[attrapereves]

Plague? Back when we adopted the M&P40 in 2006, the LE sales rep admitted that the M&P9 was the more accurate pistol.

I haven't seen an M&P9 with accuracy issues, mine included. I still shoot competitively, so I see them frequently. Don't deny there may be some out there, but there are going to be those cases with all brands.

Maybe "plague" was a strong word. However, I've never seen anyone complain about accuracy from a 40 or 45, or even the compact 9mm model.

Not every pistol is affected, but it seems much more widespread than the other M&P models.

 

[Magload]

Maybe "plague" was a strong word. However, I've never seen anyone complain about accuracy from a 40 or 45, or even the compact 9mm model.

Not every pistol is affected, but it seems much more widespread than the other M&P models.

Could that be because there are more of them being shot? Maybe more new shooters going with the 9mm? Don

 

[Rastoff]

I've never seen anyone complain about accuracy from a 40 or 45, or even the compact 9mm model.

Then you don't spend much time on any gun forum. The complaint, "My gun shoots low/left. How do I adjust the sights?" is the most common complaint for any newly purchased handgun.

A long time ago, when the M&P was relatively new, there were some legitimate accuracy concerns with the 9mm. S&W updated the barrel to address them. Since then, I've seen only one actual barrel issue and S&W replaced the barrel for free.

In this thread, it seems that there are two issues. One is the excessive play between the frame and slide. The other could be improper bullet size. We'll never know about that because all the suspect rounds were shot and the gun is gone.

Anyway, I don't think that even the term "a lot" is correct for the M&P and accuracy issues. It's actually quite rare.

 

[attrapereves]

Then you don't spend much time on any gun forum. The complaint, "My gun shoots low/left. How do I adjust the sights?" is the most common complaint for any newly purchased handgun.

A long time ago, when the M&P was relatively new, there were some legitimate accuracy concerns with the 9mm. S&W updated the barrel to address them. Since then, I've seen only one actual barrel issue and S&W replaced the barrel for free.

In this thread, it seems that there are two issues. One is the excessive play between the frame and slide. The other could be improper bullet size. We'll never know about that because all the suspect rounds were shot and the gun is gone.

Anyway, I don't think that even the term "a lot" is correct for the M&P and accuracy issues. It's actually quite rare.

The low and left thing is common with any striker fired pistol.

However, I have yet to see very many, if any complaints about other pistols shooting large groups at 25yd.

 

[WR Moore]

We get back to the principal cause of inaccuracy being the "nut behind the trigger" in the vast majority of cases.

And, as noted, ammunition also plays a part. Once upon a time I was rebarreling a lot of revolvers. I took one to the range and was horrified at the groups. I rethought my work (known good blank from famous maker, tooling the same, etc.), took extra care in shooting and the groups still sucked. Then, I ran out of ammo and had to dig in my range bag for more. At this point, the gun started stacking bullets on top of each other.

When I got home, I figured out what happened. The first ammo I'd tried had been loaded with bullet leftovers from a failed attempt to make 9mm major loads and were sized 0.356 in. The groove diameter in that barrel blank was 0.3575 in.

These days there's a lot of ammo out there probably made with components that in earlier times would have been scrap. Allowable groove diameter on 9mm barrels is (was?) 0.354-0.356 inches. The same figures for .38/.357 is 0.356-0.358 inches. If you get a barrel on the large (but still within manufactuing tolerances) end and you're shooting bullets to small to engage the rifling properly, you're going to have problems.

Slightly off topic, but I've noted before that the change in M&P rifling twist is more customer relations than a meaningful change. At least for most of us.

 

[GetRekt]

I completely understand the "it's the guy behind the trigger" argument. A lot of the times it is.


But what about the times when it isn't? I feel like actual dialogue can't be had when the only focus is on the shooter.

What about the m&p made it the ONLY one of my 18 hand guns that I can't shoot accurately? Even the shield that I still have FAR exceeded the m&p in accuracy, even with the suspect ammo.


I will get another 5 inch m&p to try again sometime in the near future. I will thoroughly look the next one over before leaving the gun shop. Will be interesting to see what kind of results I get with it.

 

[PHolster]

I completely understand the "it's the guy behind the trigger" argument. A lot of the times it is.


But what about the times when it isn't? I feel like actual dialogue can't be had when the only focus is on the shooter.

What about the m&p made it the ONLY one of my 18 hand guns that I can't shoot accurately? Even the shield that I still have FAR exceeded the m&p in accuracy, even with the suspect ammo.


I will get another 5 inch m&p to try again sometime in the near future. I will thoroughly look the next one over before leaving the gun shop. Will be interesting to see what kind of results I get with it.

Have you shot it from a rest yet? That is the only way to tell for sure. And I'm not saying it isn't the gun.

 

[Bob O]

I've never shot a pistol from a rest. And it sounds like Rekt doesn't need to. He got a sloppy pistol plain and simple. He's "proven" it as far as I can see.

 

[WR Moore]

GetRekt-you kind of had the clue that it might well be an ammo thing when it shot fine with the Federal. The barrel on the Shield might be on the lower end of the tolerance , the M&P on the high side. Like the example in my post above. Might also have been some internals dragging as I mentioned earlier.

Now, you also mentioned you shot & liked Glocks. Ok, no problem, but the (stock) trigger on the M&P isn't remotely like a Glock. More like a double action revolver with a super tune. Some folks have/had issues converting to it, I know I did. Very easy to lose patience and finish the pull with a yank. You didn't seem to have an issue with the Federal ammo, so either you were adapting or a certain amount of break in happened.

Best of luck to you. Don't forget you always have the Customer Service thing-or the Performance Center-if there's future problems.

 

[Rastoff]

But what about the times when it isn't? I feel like actual dialogue can't be had when the only focus is on the shooter.

This sword cuts both ways. In any accuracy discussion both parts of the equation must be looked at or the result has no real value. No meaningful result will be achieved if the discussion is only about the gun.

The shooter and the gun make up a system. The system has an overall accuracy that is made up of the parts of that system.
The gun has an effect and the shooter has an effect. There are more parts to that system, but these are the main contributing factors. So, the gun and shooter must be tested separately to determine how much affect each part has. This will tell you what part of the system needs to be worked on most.

Because the gun is made up of many parts, including ammo, it won't send every round through the same hole. Tiny imperfections in lock up, bore diameter vs bullet diameter, how precise the sights are, trigger consistency and a host of other things, all play into the accuracy of the gun. If you could lock it in cement so it couldn't move, it still won't put every round through the same hole.

People are also made up of lots of parts. Stamina is a factor as is state of mind. Gun fit determines how easy it is to reach the trigger. Did we have caffeine that day? One hand or two? Believe it or not, some people shoot better with one hand. All of these things factor into accuracy.

Put these two things together, gun and person, and you have thousands of parts that all contribute to error.

So don't get upset when someone asks you to shoot from a rest. It's just an attempt to eliminate one part of the system. It's not an attack on the shooter's experience or ability. Who knows, you might discover that the error is mostly the gun.

We will never know what problem there was, if any, with that gun because it's gone. In the future though, if you really want to know what your guns are capable of, learn to shoot from a rest. My experience is that the results are generally satisfying for the shooter.

 

[GetRekt]

A couple of people asked me to give an update on how the Glock 34 performed for me.

It has been great so far. The extended mag release gave me one HELL of a blister on my palm after the competition, so that's got to go. Other than that, all good.


Placed 3rd in this week's competition - even though that's my first bit of shooting with that gun, and it is completely bone stock even down to the sights. Goes to show you don't need go fast parts on your guns to be competitive.

 

[BigBill]

Off topic a tad just some facts.

I purchased a well used norinco 1911a1 45cap. The slide rattles when shook. The barrel bushing was more loose in the slide than the barrel.
Just for ha's, ha' s I wanted this to be my very first 1911 build. I purchased
a $59 surplus USGI barrel and a IAI national match barrel bushing. I did all the fitting. I added the FLGR with 18# recoil spring. Using Russian wolf 45cap ball ammo she shoots clusters and cloverleafs @ 25yds handheld.
My point is even with a loose frame rail to slide fit. Everyone who shoots it shoots cloverleafs. It's no fluke. I don't shoot less than 25yds when testing for accuracy.

I never addressed the loose frame rails. I will try my 200gr sec target loads next. I purchased every tool to work on the 1911 from Brownsville. I just wanted to see how a 1911 affordable build would be using lower priced parts.

I have to admit I don't worry about the loose slide. If your barrel is snug in the barrel bushing it's practice, practice and more practice.

 

[GetRekt]

Oh and just as another bit of info, this is the first 5 shots I ever fired with the glock 34, right before my competition.

5 shots at 7 yards, very nice group. Far, far different from the foot wide groups I was getting with the m&p. Don't know what the problem was with that pistol, but there definitely was a problem.

 

[RobzGuns]

Glad to hear that the Bone-Stock G43 worked for you.
I'm still waiting for my local ranges to get some rentals in, so I can try it out.