F-15 vs. F-16 vs. F-22

[zzzippper]

Another airplane thread. From 2010 to 2012 I worked for the US government (still do) in Korea. I supervised a group of quality assurance specialists that administered the contract for the depot level maintenance for USAF and USMC PTO aircraft.

Our Government Flight Representative (USAF Major) was an F-15 pilot, his brother is an F-22 pilot. I loved talking flying with "Grunt". He talked a lot about dissimilar aircombat training with the F-16s and F-22s. He told me that the F-15 pilots were taught to fight in the vertical, zooming up and down. F-16 pilots are taught to fight in the horizontal, cutting corners with its superior manuverability. I asked him how the F-22 pilots were taught to fight and he said "Any way they want."

The F-22 plan is to attack at medium rangy, un-seen, and fire Sparrow missiles. The first flight circles back and the next flight does the same. When all Sparrows are exhausted they do the same with Sidewinders. When all missiles are gone they cycle through with guns. Hopefully, not much will be left.

Pardon me if I've posted this before, it is probably my best ever story.

 

[rwsmith]

Stand off missiles.....

We've had the capability to shoot missiles out of visual range for a long time, but I thought that it was negated by the requirement to make a visual id before firing. Maybe now aircraft identification is better at longer ranges.

The F-15 and F-16 were remarkable for their time but everything is outclassed by the F-22.

I don't know how the new strike fighter stands up in a dogfight. It's been hard enough just to get it into production.

 

[Coldshooter]

After a Red Flag Exercise at Eielson AFB when the F22 first came to Alaska it was reported that 4 F22s had out fought 12 F15s. Now that other pilots are familiar with them the odds might not be so one sided.

 

[zzzippper]

An F16 "shot down" an F22 and had the kill painted in the fuselage. It was ordered to be painted over. Nothing is invincible.

 

[LostintheOzone]

My guess is more F18 Super Hornets fly more combat missions than F15, F16 and F22 put together. But I'm sure the F22 is a superior aircraft. There just isn't many around due to cost.

 

[Kanewpadle]

The F-15 has proven itself in battle many times over. I'll stick with it until the F-22 does the same.

Once upon a time we relied on technology instead of the man in the cockpit. Remember the F-4 in Vietnam in the early days?

 

[zzzippper]

The F-15 has proven itself in battle many times over. I'll stick with it until the F-22 does the same.

Once upon a time we relied on technology instead of the man in the cockpit. Remember the F-4 in Vietnam in the early days?

The same pilot told me that it is too easy to get submerged inside the cockpit with displays and switches. The F22 cures this with superior information management.

F15 airframes are also getting old and most, if not all, have flight restrictions on them. Grunt said the only time he tried to go supersonic the airplane didn't like it and he had to back off. And that for an aircraft originally rated at mach 2.5.

 

[Straightshooter2]

I can understand why the F-15 pilots were taught to fight vertical. Across from the terminal at the Jacksonville Airport is the Florida Air National Guard base and they had a flight of F-15s stopover once for some reason. I was in the Delta Operations office and I heard one of them request clearance for a "high performance takeoff" from the tower so of course I went shooting out the door to see it. He sat at the end of the runway, hit the 'burner and as he reached VR, he basically stood it on it's tail and climbed until he was out of sight. It was impressive!

CW

 

[LVSteve]

The F-22 pilots made themselves rather unpopular at Nellis by describing fighting the F-15 as "clubbing baby seals".

 

[HOUSTON RICK]

The F-16 will be around for a while yet.

 

[Donn]

F-15's have been around almost 40 years. To my knowledge, none have ever been lost in air-to-air combat. Not a bad record. Back in the 50's, the smartest people in the room decided fighters equipped with missiles were the way of the future. How'd that work out over Vietnam? How many times are we going down this road? It probably gave the F-22 designers a rash to have to equip the F-22 with a, (ugh), gun, but at least it's got one. Chuck Yeager said while it's always nice to have the superior aircraft, the best pilot will prevail in most encounters. Right now, the Air Force has their best pilots in F-22's and they're getting the better of F-15's and 16's. Well duh!

 

[Rick_A]

I have nothing to offer to the discussion but have pics...

Out of all the aerobatic displays I've seen of military jets this guy has been the most impressive:

 

[zzzippper]

I can understand why the F-15 pilots were taught to fight vertical. Across from the terminal at the Jacksonville Airport is the Florida Air National Guard base and they had a flight of F-15s stopover once for some reason. I was in the Delta Operations office and I heard one of them request clearance for a "high performance takeoff" from the tower so of course I went shooting out the door to see it. He sat at the end of the runway, hit the 'burner and as he reached VR, he basically stood it on it's tail and climbed until he was out of sight. It was impressive!
CW

When I worked at McDonnell Douglas (later Boeing) for the government I worked the F-15 center fuselage and final assembly part of the line. Final assembly's hangar door opened out to Lambert International and the test/acceptance flights would take off from there. Lambert's air traffic control responsibility topped out at 10,000 feet so all of the F-15s requested a "Viking departure" which was straight up on afterburners. An F-15 can hit 10,000 feet in less than 30 seconds.

Before I worked for the government I drove a courtesy airport shuttle for a hotel. One day I was taking a German guy to the airport. The ramp onto I-70 was right in line with the runway. Just then an F-15 did a Viking departure and the German dude said, "Mein Gott, you Amerikans haff rockets at your airports!?"

 

[A10]

I dunno about all this......I owned an F150 for a while though......

 

[cass]

I can understand why the F-15 pilots were taught to fight vertical. Across from the terminal at the Jacksonville Airport is the Florida Air National Guard base and they had a flight of F-15s stopover once for some reason. I was in the Delta Operations office and I heard one of them request clearance for a "high performance takeoff" from the tower so of course I went shooting out the door to see it. He sat at the end of the runway, hit the 'burner and as he reached VR, he basically stood it on it's tail and climbed until he was out of sight. It was impressive!

CW

Back in the mid 70's, when the first F-16A was nearing its final test phase, out test pilot (Neil Anderson) decided to do one of those "high performance takeoffs". When he stood her up, both horizontal stabilizers dragged the runway, destroying the trailing edges. Also, he "geared up" as soon as the plane left the ground, and the right main landing gear wheel stuck firmly in the wheel bay. It was stuck, the door couldn't be closed, nor could the gear be moved. It had to fly around to use up the fuel on board (we didn't have a fuel dump) and did a beautiful gear-up landing on the grass. The cause of the gear problem was due to the extremely close tolerances in the wheel bay and the speed of the spinning tire put it out of shape. Now, the tires automatically brake when weight is relieved. The horizontal stabilizer problem was corrected with minor design changes and a "don't ever" note for the pilots. The F-22 is superior to anything out there, but politics killed it.

 

[feralmerril]

I was a Lockheed guard and was there on its maiden flight. I just spent a half hour looking at that picture of the guard standing behind the pylon. For the first couple minuets I thought it was me. The trees in the background doesnt look like edwards AF base as I recall it. Then I got thinking the maiden flight was back around 24 years ago and think my hair was still darker then. Even my wife at first thought it was me but we met about 11 years ago. Think I even still have a similar uniform in the shed. Our test pilots Dave Fergenson was the pilot on the maiden flight and Tom Morganfield flew the second flight. Morganfield wore a gorilla head piece when he landed. The first gulf war started up almost the same time. Remember guarding it one night at edwards when we heard the war was taking off on the radio.

 

[zzzippper]

I was a Lockheed guard and was there on its maiden flight. I just spent a half hour looking at that picture of the guard standing behind the pylon. For the first couple minuets I thought it was me. The trees in the background doesnt look like edwards AF base as I recall it. Then I got thinking the maiden flight was back around 24 years ago and think my hair was still darker then. Even my wife at first thought it was me but we met about 11 years ago. Think I even still have a similar uniform in the shed. Our test pilots Dave Fergenson was the pilot on the maiden flight and Tom Morganfield flew the second flight. Morganfield wore a gorilla head piece when he landed. The first gulf war started up almost the same time. Remember guarding it one night at edwards when we heard the war was taking off on the radio.

Are you talking about the picture of the F-15? Why would a Lockheed guard be guarding a McDonnell Douglas plane? The F-15 was operational WAY before the Gulf War.

 

[cass]

I was a Lockheed guard and was there on its maiden flight. I just spent a half hour looking at that picture of the guard standing behind the pylon. For the first couple minuets I thought it was me. The trees in the background doesnt look like edwards AF base as I recall it. Then I got thinking the maiden flight was back around 24 years ago and think my hair was still darker then. Even my wife at first thought it was me but we met about 11 years ago. Think I even still have a similar uniform in the shed. Our test pilots Dave Fergenson was the pilot on the maiden flight and Tom Morganfield flew the second flight. Morganfield wore a gorilla head piece when he landed. The first gulf war started up almost the same time. Remember guarding it one night at edwards when we heard the war was taking off on the radio.

You'll probably remember "Flight 0" It happened a couple weeks before the maiden flight. On "Flight 0" day, the A/C was fueled for only two high speed taxis. On the first taxi, right when max speed was hit, a gust of wind hit it from the left, and the plane suddenly went airborne. The pilot did what he had to do, and circled around for a unscheduled landing. The right stabilizer was damaged on that event also. The F-16 is the only fighter that has an official Flight 0 to its history. Fun times !

 

[feralmerril]

Your right. Truth is I seen they were talking about the F-22, scanned the pictures and immediately honed in on what I thought was a picture of myself. I didnt really look at the plane as they do look a lot alike. Humor me, I am a old man. On top of that I was up all night hit with what I at first thought was a kidney stone. Still sitting here in a daze. Thats the best I got.

 

[zzzippper]

Your right. Truth is I seen they were talking about the F-22, scanned the pictures and immediately honed in on what I thought was a picture of myself. I didnt really look at the plane as they do look a lot alike. Humor me, I am a old man. On top of that I was up all night hit with what I at first thought was a kidney stone. Still sitting here in a daze. Thats the best I got.

No problem. Cool that you were there for the F22.