FBI Miami Shootout

[686fan]

This has probably been discussed before, but unfortunately I missed it. In the 1986 Miami FBI Shootout with Platt & Matix, several of the agents were armed with 357 Magnums. From what I've read, they were loaded with 38 Special ammo, not 357 Magnum. Does anyone know the reason the agents weren't using 357? If it was the FBI's policy to not issue 357 Magnum ammo, does anyone know why? I'm certainly not criticizing the agents. Two of these brave men died in the line of duty. Platt & Matix were both shot several times by the agents early in the gunfight. I know it's easy to second-guess, but I can't help but wonder if using 357 ammo would have stopped the fight earlier, possibly saving agents Dove and Grogan's lives. Even though this happened over 24 years ago, it still saddens me to think about the loss of these two agents.

 

[flop-shank]

The biggest snafu wasn't that the agents weren't using .357 ammo, it was that there was a policy in place that had them out looking for hyper-violent bank robbers, known to use long gums, and the FBI guys didn't each have a shotgun or a rifle.

 

[Steave]

IIRC, 125 gr. JHP .38 Special was the FBI issue at the time. I know there are other here who know for sure and will chime in.

 

[flop-shank]

The agents were using the FBI load (.38+P 158 gr. LSWCHP). I've read the autopsies of Platt and Matix. It worked reasonably well. Not stellar though.

 

[NE450No2]

Some of the agents were carrying 9mm's as well.

 

[Ogandydancer]

There were a lot of mistakes made that day, I guess the one that stands out the most is the fact they were grossly underarmed. There is a very good documentary on this on I think maybe the Bio. Channel or maybe one of th History channels that runs every so often. If you will watch for it it can answer a lot of your questions,and much better than I.

 

[Grog]

There was one shotgun used, and used well. Too bad it was too little too late.

 

[jframe]

What I DON'T understand, as a private citizen, is why were the agents armed with Model 13 .357 Magnum revolvers, then mandated to carry .38 Special? I understand that the LHP was the issued load, but why give a man a gun that's chambered in .357, then force him to download it to protect himself and others?

 

[robertoj29]

There's a pretty good analysis at this link.

Educational Zone #106 - Forensic Analysis, 1986 FBI Miami Firefight - Page 1

 

[Grog]

What I DON'T understand, as a private citizen, is why were the agents armed with Model 13 .357 Magnum revolvers, then mandated to carry .38 Special?

Agencies have done that for years. At one time, some bosses figured it was ok to practice with .38spl wadcutters while issuing full-power .357mag ammo. Then the cops got killed because they could not handle their duty weapons so the bosses made them shoot with the same ammo they were issued, sometimes that meant going to a .38spl load.


During the mid-90s, South Carolina would not let security officers carry .357mag ammo so I issued the .38spl FBI load to my people.

It was funny, because they also allowed the 380, 9mm, 40S&W, 45ACP and the 10mm plus the 12ga shotgun. I didn't own a 380 or 10mm, so I just carried the other ones (not ll at the same time ).

 

[jframe]

Agencies have done that for years. At one time, some bosses figured it was ok to practice with .38spl wadcutters while issuing full-power .357mag ammo. Then the cops got killed because they could not handle their duty weapons so the bosses made them shoot with the same ammo they were issued, sometimes that meant going to a .38spl load.


During the mid-90s, South Carolina would not let security officers carry .357mag ammo so I issued the .38spl FBI load to my people.

It was funny, because they also allowed the 380, 9mm, 40S&W, 45ACP and the 10mm plus the 12ga shotgun. I didn't own a 380 or 10mm, so I just carried the other ones (not ll at the same time ).

Wow, and I thought that bureaucratic bullcrap only existed in my Ford parts and service department where I work!

 

[sigp220.45]

The issue ammo at the time was 158 grain +P lead hollowpoint. They carried what they were issued.

Most of them weren't carrying Model 13s. SSA McNeill had a personally owned 2 1/2 Model 19 and SA Mireles had a personally owned four inch 686.

SAs Dove and Grogan had SWAT Smith 459 9mms. Their issue was the 115 grain Silvertip.

The guns assigned to the agents involved in the shootout are listed in the first section of this compendium on pages 69 and 70, by model and serial number. The blacked out names are guys that were on the stakeout but not involved in the shooting.

Federal Bureau of Investigation - Freedom of Information Privacy Act

There were 17 agents involved in the rolling stakeout that day. There were shotguns and MP-5s and ARs amongst them. As it turned out, the guys who did the stop had pistols and shotguns. SSA McNeill elected not to use his 870, and later regretted it. SA Mireles used his, but it wasn't particularly effective. He shot a G-ride and some feet. He put their lights out by walking up to the car and firing that 686 into their heads and necks. The .38 ammo worked fine for that.

There was no policy that they couldn't have long guns with them. Most guys did. Some of these guys didn't. They all could have had one if they wanted to.

Believe me, if it happened today the air would be a-glitter with flying .223 and 10mm brass. Both guys would be swiss-cheesed, and people would be moaning about excessive force.

I work with agents that won't knock on a door without a 12 pound gadget laden M4 hanging around their neck. I still prefer a pistol for 95% of the work I do. I don't feel undergunned.

I'm amazed that this shootout still fascinates people almost a quarter century after it happened, and that so much bad information still gets passed around. Its not secret stuff - click the link above and read all about it. I remember long debates about what kind of gun Mireles carried, and Massad Ayoob weighing in with his recollection that Mireles told him it was a 686. Mas was right, but that info was readily available for those who would just search it out. (Keep your eye out for a four inch 686 with serial number AAH8939.)

To answer the OP's original question, the issue ammo was and is a good round. .357 Magnum ammo was authorized for carry as a reload, and for carry in the revolver with the permission of the Assistant Special Agent in Charge (ASAC). When I carried a revolver, I went ahead and loaded .357 Silvertips and carried the .38s in my backup. The rationale for the edict to carry .38s in .357 revolvers is probably boringly pragmatic - it worked, it was cheaper, and lots of guys were still carrying Model 10s and it made issue easier. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Lew Archer]

Back in the day, Agents had to obtain "SAC Authority" (permission from the Special Agent in Charge of the field office) to use .357s. As a practical matter, many Agents carried .38s in the revolvers, but .357s as spare ammo. SAC authority was also required to deploy certain long guns, such as the M-16.

Things have changed. Today, Agents (including non-SWAT Agents) routinely deploy with M-4 carbines without special permission. Some carry private purchased Glock 21s. There are still MP-5s in 9 and 10mm in the field and, of course, shotguns (the preferred round being a slug).

Regarding Miami, keep in mind that the gunfight was preceded by a loose surveillance...Agents stationed all along the area where the suspects had previously robbed banks. Some of those Agents did have M-16s and MP-5s, but arrived at the scene of the gunfight too late.

Two Agents, in one vehicle (SAs Grogan and Dove) spotted the suspects and began following the suspects, who quickly recognized the surveillance. With less than all the available Agents on scene, SSA McNeill made the decision to stop the vehicle using force...I think his intent was to contain the suspects before they got out onto a major highway.

Two on scene Agents had shotguns...SA Mirales, who used his valiently, and, after being injured, with one hand, and SSA McNeill. His shotgun was in the back seat. After the forcible car stop, the gun fight began, and he had no time to get to his shotgun. Instead, he disabled Matix with rounds from his Model 19 (but .38, I believe). This was likely a personally owned weapon. Some of these key rounds were fired after his gun hand was hit by a .223 round. He kept shooting, despite that injury. He was then put out of action by a chest hit from the .223 which momentarily paralyzed him.

The two murdered Agents, SAs Dove and Grogan, were SWAT team members and armed with S&W 9mm pistols (not sure the model, but they were hi-capacity). Grogan was rendered almost sightless after losing his eyeglasses in the beginning of the fight and Dove's weapon was eventually disabled by incoming fire from Platt. He was defenseless at the time of his murder.

I often wonder how different the outcome would have been if SSA McNeill's shotgun had been in his Bureau vehicle's front seat...or if SA Dove had a second gun...or if SA Grogan had a second pair of eyeglasses on hand. He was the best shot in the office.

No doubt about it, having more of everything can only help.

 

[bennettfam]

I think this is one of the incidents that led my local PD to transition first to .40 and then to .45 handguns, along with rifles to keep the 870s company in the patrol cars. None have ever been used but they are there in case. A shame agents had to die to bring about change.

 

[flop-shank]

What I DON'T understand, as a private citizen, is why were the agents armed with Model 13 .357 Magnum revolvers, then mandated to carry .38 Special? I understand that the LHP was the issued load, but why give a man a gun that's chambered in .357, then force him to download it to protect himself and others?

Ever fire .357s from a snubby? The fierce recoil and muzzle flash are beyond the ability of the average shooter. While g-men are generally considered good shots, I can say that, in my case, it took a good thousand rounds of full house 125 gr. JHPs before I'd mastered them from snubs.

Many of the experienced shooters on this forum adamantly refuse to use hot .357s in their snubnose revolvers and in some cases full size guns.

SigP22045, thanks for clarifying the policy thing. Deliberately not taking a long gun into such an encounter displays a lack of understanding and/or judgement, IMO. I'm glad to see that things have changed.

As far as the ongoing fascination goes, it's really quite simple to understand. Miami is the O.K. Corral of our era, but really supercedes it because of the tremendous impact it had on small arms ammunition, caliber selection and policy for not only law enforcement, but non-LEO civilians also.

 

[Faulkner]

What I DON'T understand, as a private citizen, is why were the agents armed with Model 13 .357 Magnum revolvers, then mandated to carry .38 Special? I understand that the LHP was the issued load, but why give a man a gun that's chambered in .357, then force him to download it to protect himself and others?

Actually, it was quite common in the 70's and 80's for LEO's to carry .357's but load them with .38 Special ammo. When I joined our sheriff's department in the early 90's they had not yet transitioned to semi-auto's and MOST of the officers carried .38's in their 586's. It was also common practice that when we did our semi-annual qualifications we use .38 ammo regardless of what we carried on duty. The .38's were considered easier to qualify with and "not as hard" on the guns.

I recall several other departments where officers had to have approval from the CLEO to carry magnum ammo. Most of the time these would be the "gun guys" in the department.

I was young and anal back then and I insisted that I not only carry .357's on duty, but I shot my qualifying rounds with magnum ammo too. The range officer would always put me (and a couple others who were like minded) down on the end of the range so we would not disturb the rest of the shooters with our magnum ammo.

 

[Wyatt Burp]

My 3" Model 13-3 with Pach. compact grips is a dream to shoot with .357's. And I'm a moderate .44 special and .45 Colt fan. Is there a big difference beyween it and a 2 1/2" Model 19.
That TV movie on this was really good if it was accurate. It was brutal and for the first time for me took the "glamour" out of movie shootouts that you still see today. We just watched From Paris With Love with Travolta and the constant shootouts were so far fetched. Bad guy's 9MM won't penetrate a turned over dining room table? Right.

 

[jframe]

My 3" Model 13-3 with Pach. compact grips is a dream to shoot with .357's. And I'm a moderate .44 special and .45 Colt fan. Is there a big difference beyween it and a 2 1/2" Model 19.
That TV movie on this was really good if it was accurate. It was brutal and for the first time for me took the "glamour" out of movie shootouts that you still see today. We just watched From Paris With Love with Travolta and the constant shootouts were so far fetched. Bad guy's 9MM won't penetrate a turned over dining room table? Right.

There's a video clip of the shootout in the movie on YouTube, but I'm not computer savvy enough to post a link. I think you can type in "1986 FBI shootout" there, and it'll take you to it.

 

[Wyatt Burp]

There's a video clip of the shootout in the movie on YouTube, but I'm not computer savvy enough to post a link. I think you can type in "1986 FBI shootout" there, and it'll take you to it.

Here it is. Do you guys real familiar with this shootout find this accurate?
YouTube - The 1986 Miami FBI Shootout

 

[Jellybean]

686fan, it was common for many agencies to issue .38s for the .357s for the simple fact that it made it easier on the agency. Not every agent can handle a full house .357 magnum round,or a normal 10mmm and it's not just the females. It was much easier to procure and distribute ammo if everyone was carrying the same thing and I'm sure the fact that some agents had 9mms was a nightmare to whoever it was that had to keep track of who was using it.

I doubt that it would have made any difference if anyone was using it instead of the .38s. I also doubt it would be any different if it happened again tommorrow.