Federal "Champion" .45 ACP

[taylorkh]

A S&W "Performance" Center 625 is behind this story so I thought I would put it on the S&W forum. I purchased said revolver a couple of months ago and, bottom line, it does NOT work. A misfire or two or three per cylinder. Yes, I spoke with customer support (a moron) and it is in Louisiana waiting it's turn for the smith at Clark Custom Guns to make me a revolver from it. But back to the ammo...

Firearm manufacturers will blame handloaded ammo for anything they can blame it for. I have been loading .45 ACP since 1976 so I have some idea what I am doing. Still, before calling S&W I decided to try some factory ammo. I purchased a box of "Federal Champion .45 AUTO 230 Grain FMJ RN Brass Case" from Wally World. It turned out to be small primer which I understand all Federal and CCI .45 ACP is these days. No problem. I can reload with a small primer and see if that helps. But it never got that far. The boat anchor was on its way to LA.

I unloaded the last moon clip; 5 round fired and one with barely a pin prick on the primer. As i returned the cases and unfired round to the box I observed that the bullet had moved forward about 1/8" from recoil. Just for the heck of it I called Federal. "That is known to happen." True. "If you are considering firing hardball from a revolver we recommend using American Eagle." Curious.

I noted that the box said not to use this ammo in ported barrels or ported recoil compensators. I asked why? It turns out that the "FMJ" is not a FMJ. Rather it is more like a plated bullet. Nice of them to say that on the box.

Ken

 

[DanRod_LA]

Interesting read on the ammo issues, and hopefully they sort out that revolver! Lot of money for it not to work. I was having lots of "light strikes" with winchester white box and some speer ammo. Cleaned the striker channel on my gun and they decreased but would still get one now and again. Asked my local ammo supplier (LAX Ammo) and he stated winchester is known to have "hard primers" and I should try American Eagle instead.

 

[taylorkh]

And it gets better...

I sectioned one of the bullets and compared it to a REAL Winchester FMJ which I also sectioned. The Federal has a VERY thin plating.

And then... Earlier this week I picked up a case of 500 rounds of CCI 230 grain "FMJ" to replace some ANCIENT genuine GI ball ammo in my "I ain't ever gonna shoot this but I should have it put back" stock. I just spoke to a representative at CCI / Spear / Blazer et. al. He confirmed that their cheap ammo is also plated. "SAAMI allows us to call plated bullets TMJ or FMJ." I do not think it is a SAAMI requirement that companies BS there customers.

I have nothing against plated bullets. I use them in my .38 Spl match revolver. Just tell me what you are selling me.

Ken

p.s. My GI ammo is ca. 1977. I think it will be good for a couple or three more decades

 

[Sevens]

I agree on the idea that some disclosure would be nice and I'd expect it, so that's disappointing.

I'll say however that I can't exactly come up with an idea in this pea brain of mine of how any handgun bullet could possibly ever be a "TMJ" and also be jacketed. How would they construct such a slug?

 

[M29since14]

...I have nothing against plated bullets. I use them in my .38 Spl match revolver. Just tell me what you are selling me.

Amen! I am tired of buying FMJ and finding I've actually bought plated instead. The standard shouldn't be what's "allowed." How about just telling us the truth?

 

[taylorkh]

Thanks DanRod_LA,

The primers were NOT the problem. It appeared to me that the left side of the hammer was dragging on the frame. The smith at Clark's told me he had a Performance Center 625 on the bench which a customer sent in. It does not fire - same issue. He said the 8 shot 9mm revolvers from the PC tend to have the same issue.

I am not sure what it will look like exactly when it is done. I have an LWR which they built for me several years ago. Revolver – Custom Lightweight (LWR) | Clark Custom Guns Fantastic! I wanted a stainless barrel to go with my 67. They had 2 lett in stock and said they would hold one. The job was supposed to take about 5 months. My first 1911 was supposed to be 2 months and I saw it again after 9 months. Less than a month after I sent down my revolver the phone rang. Caller ID showed "Clark Custom,,," Oh S#!+ They are calling to tell me they used MY stainless barrel blank. No, it was DONE. The wanted some money. Had it a couple days later

For the 625 I told them I wanted an MWR (Medium Weight Revolver.) Perhaps I will see it by this fall. Other than the LWR I have NEVER had a custom firearm completed on time. Still, they are worth the wait.

The only other light strike issue I have had was a new Springfield Armory "Mil-spsc" 1911. I was considering commissioning a full house 10mm 1911 from their custom shop. I had no experience with their handguns so I purchased the entry level one as a sample. The slide to frame and barrel to slide fit up was great. The trigger was fantastic. But it would not shoot. After a couple of boxes I was getting 1 o 2 misfires per magazine.

Long story short it had a 1/4 cock notch which was at a larger radius from the hammer axis that the sear hook. Unless one snatched the hammer back fully the hammer would rub on the 1/4 cock. I learned to shoot on a single action match pistol. My trigger finger is programmed to pull until the break and then STOP. As I got more used to the pistol I dragged on the 1/4 cock more and more.

It went back to SA and back to me (nothing fixed). I installed a regular hamer from my parts box. Better. Then I found that the hole in the mainspring housing was ROUGHLY drilled out to accommodate the key lock. It was dragging badly. Replaced the mainspring housing etc. Better but still rather pathetic primer strikes even when it did go off. Finally I replaced the titanium firing pin and overly long rebound spring with a stainless pin and proper length spring. Now it would shoot. I also replaced the thumb safety and slide stop as these parts were machined out of spec or misshapen. Needless to say, their custom shop did not get my project

Ken

p.s. If bad karma follows from gun to gun... I traded an Auto Ordinance 1911 on the SA. It was a disaster from the day I traded a Mini 14 for it. I really liked the Mini 14 but it was tough to hit anything smaller than a car door at 100 yds. I had traded an SKS for the Mini 14. The SKS was the second one I had from the same batch. The first on ripped the rims off the cases. I returned it to the gun show the next day and the dealer swapped the second one. The second one would fire sometimes. He decided it was the ammo and sent me a new case with a call tag for the first. Still no go. He sent me a milled trigger guard assy. That worked until jhe hammer spring shattered into several pieces (over hardened I guess). Got some springs from the harware store and got it working.

So my theory is that the bad karma from purchasing a ChiComm SKS ($79) and a case of ChiComm ammo ($89) spread to the Mini 14, the Auto Ordinance 1911 and finally to the Springfield Armory 1911. If I ever decide to get rid of the SA, I will demil it with my plasma cutter and bury it somewhere

 

[stansdds]

I've had similar issues with my reloads using plated bullets. I have had great success using them in semi-automatic pistols, but with revolvers, there is a great tendency for the bullet to pull out of the case. I tried a very mild roll crimp, light enough to not cut through the plating, but enough to tell the case was crimped, and I have tried taper crimping like I do for semi-auto pistol cartridges, but neither method proved adequate. Without a crimp groove or sufficient friction between case and bullet, those plated bullets have been a real problem for my revolvers.

 

[taylorkh]

Thanks stansdds,

I generally shoot cast bullets in the .45 ACP and generally in 1911s. When I get a working revolver back from Clark's I plan to load some 200 grain cast bullets which I purchased from Missouri bullet. They call them "IDP #4XD" if you want to have a look on their site. I think they will feed better than a SWC when I drop a moon clip full into the cylinder. With a decent taper crimp into the hard alloy and the heavier weight of the revolver with a 6" barrel I think the bullets will hold in place against recoil.

Ken

 

[kaaskop49]

Interesting read on the ammo issues, and hopefully they sort out that revolver! Lot of money for it not to work. I was having lots of "light strikes" with winchester white box and some speer ammo. Cleaned the striker channel on my gun and they decreased but would still get one now and again. Asked my local ammo supplier (LAX Ammo) and he stated winchester is known to have "hard primers" and I should try American Eagle instead.

.45 hardball with the bullet jumping the case? Light strikes with factory hardball? This may sound silly, but there's something very wrong here. "Don't use W-W, but try AE instead." Use one brand in a revolver and another in a 1911. .45 hardball has been mfg'd for over a century; it was a military cartridge that we used in at least 5 wars. Such issues should not even be dreamed about, let alone exist. Let me stop.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

 

[H Richard]

I was somewhat disturbed also recently. I had bought at auction locally a nearly new 986. (9mm 7 round Pro Class L Frame). I took it to the range to sight in (as I immediately had put a red dot sight on it), and only 2 of the 7 rounds fired from the first moon clip. I immediately thought two things, strain screw backed out, or firing pin too short.

I got it home and pulled the grips and the strain screw was backed out nearly two full turns. Whether this was done by the previous owner or at the factory is unknown. On the return trip there is 100 % reliability.

 

[taylorkh]

Thanks Kaaskop49,

In my two cases the light strike issues were 100% the fault of the firearm manufacturer. Every other 1911 I have shot hits the primer like a sledge hammer. The drag within the mainspring housing, the drag on the quarter cock "notch", the light weight titanium firing pin and the overly generous firing pin rebound spring were what was wrong with the Springfield Armory. It works fine now that those parts have been replaced.

As to the S&W 625... from my inspection it seemed to be rubbing the left side of the hammer against the frame. The smith at Clark's told me he was currently working on another Performance Center 625 which a customer had sent in. Same symptoms but he did not think the hammer rub was the cause of the issue on that one. He said he had seen several of the 8 shot 9mm N framed from the Performance Center with similar issues.

As to the jumping bullet... The soft lead under the thin plating does not provide much to crimp AGAINST. It was not really hardball.

Thanks H Richard,

The 625 was brand new. The strain screw was fully in place. It seems that the PC simply installs a Wolff reduced power ribbed mainspring as their "tuning" process. The firing pin extends though the breach face sufficiently to punch the primer. When it does fire it DOES fire and produces a typical indent on the primer. When it does not fire... the imprint on the primer looks more like what you might see on a .223 which has been chambered in an AR but not fired.

Ken

 

[mscampbell2734]

Regarding you issue with the bullet jumping the case. Instead of trying to hold the bullet in place with the crimp I'd suggest more neck tension.

This can be accomplished by either ordering an undersized expander plug OR taking your current plug and chucking it up in a drill and using fine grit paper to take it down about .003.

 

[taylorkh]

Thanks mscampbell2734,

I have loaded thousands of rounds of revolver ammo. Light to medium loads with taper crimps and HEAVY loads with roll crimps. I do always size the cases with properly sized carbide sizer dies. I have not had problems with MY ammo. It is this box of Federal fake FMJ.

Ken

 

[mscampbell2734]

HAHAHA Fake FMJ.

Yeah cutting corners to same half a cent per round probable makes them millions every year. They will NOT change a thing because the vast majority of shooters will not complain and experience an issue.

 

[taylorkh]

Thanks mscampbell2734,

Plated are definitely less expensive to manufacture and do offer the shooter some advantages. The covered base reduces lead emission at the muzzle (more important at indoor ranges), the softer lead under the plating will obdurate more easily and may perform better in some barrels. For those who shoot steel... no more worries about razor sharp chunks gilding metal coming back to visit. And of course plated should equate to lower cost and more shooting per dollar.

I had an opinion posted over at ar15.com to the effect that manufacturers distance themselves from "electroplated bullets" due to the bad reputation some early bullet makers associated to plated bullets.

Ken