In the past few years I've had to return firearms to manufacturers for warranty repair. Although I'm pleased that prepaid labels were provided, return shipping to my home understandably required a delivery signature. This is a hardship since no one is usually home. S&W has offered to ship my current warranty handgun to my FFL, allowing me to pick it up at his shop. Problem solved, except my FFL says he is required to log the gun into his shop records upon its arrival, run a criminal background check on me and require that I provide my registration certificate as proof of ownership when I come to pick it up. My belief is that he will charge me his usual new-purchase transfer fee for these services. Does this seem reasonable or necessary for an FFL licensee to do?
FFL Responsibilities
- Thread starter Sammy75
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Yep, ffl is required to check it into and out of their bound book. The transfer fees are now the norm and range from $25-$75. UPS and FEDEX now require that guns go from FFL to FFL; however, there are a few manufacturers that are still negotiating their contracts with the shippers. Too many guns have gone missing after drivers leave them on porches without a signature.
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That's what I needed to know. I'd talked to FedEx about just holding these deliveries at their depot-- I'd come with ID, sign for the delivery, etc.. They said they cannot do it without the shipper's permission. S&W will not permit it. I asked.
Thanks for the info. I guess it will cost me $35. So much bureaucracy.
Thanks for the info. I guess it will cost me $35. So much bureaucracy.
David Hineline
Member
The manufacturer or any FFL dealer sent a firearm for repair can ship the gun direct back to the ower by law with no paperwork, the problem is UPS and Fed Ex internal policies restrict this.
Your local FFL doing repair work does not need to log a gun in and out in their books or on paperwork if returned to the original person who dropped it off, unless the gun is in the possession of the FFL for more than 1 business day.
Your local FFL doing repair work does not need to log a gun in and out in their books or on paperwork if returned to the original person who dropped it off, unless the gun is in the possession of the FFL for more than 1 business day.
Smith always paid for my FFL fee, if shipping to a FFL was required, but that was a long time ago.
Smith usually, or used to, send back to you except if a new serial number is required, ie replaced gun, or serialized part.
Smith usually, or used to, send back to you except if a new serial number is required, ie replaced gun, or serialized part.
Your FFL is following the letter of the law...
...Ben
...BenPisgah
Member
Yes, the law is stupid -- but your FFL is steering you correctly. If it's coming to his shop, he has to go through all the hoops, and so do you...
Photog
Member
I dropped in to say pretty much this after reading the first few inaccurate posts.
ATF Ruling 77-1 requires a repair fire arm to be logged into your A&D record as an acquisition if it remains with the FFL over night. Practically speaking unless the customer waits, the gunsmith/FFL is going to log it in.
That said they should keep a separate bound A&D book for repairs that is formatted the same way as the other bound books. That makes it a lot easier to track A&D records for repairs, particularly when the firearm is returned to the factory and replaced with another one of the sme type and kind.
The same information is needed on both the acquisition and disposition sides even though it’s brought in and picked up by the same person, but that’s essential to show it is not in fact a legal transfer.
That’s important as if the firearm is returned to the same person who brought it in for repair, no Form 4473 or background check is required because the ATF and the statute and federal regs states this is not a “transfer.” (There however might still be state laws that impose additional restrictions.)
Consequently, bringing a firearm in for repair does not, under federal law, constitute a transfer or require a new background check or 4473.
Now…if you drop it off and your wife picks it up, then she would have to complete a form 4473 and undergo a NICS check, and any other state required purchase requirements such as a pistol purchase permit, waiting period, etc. Don’t do that.
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If the FFL takes a gun in for repair or warranty service and then ships it back to the manufacturer, that’s a disposition so it has to be logged in and then logged out, and then logged back in again when it comes back from the manufacturer. It can then be given back to the person who brought it back in with an entry on the same line where you received it from the repair facility.
That is a lot of logging of acquisitions and dispositions. Unfortunately, some gun shops seem to forget that’s part of the service that we as customers pay for when we pay more money to buy locally. Consequently some shops don’t want to mess with it and want you to work with the factory directly.
While the ATF allows the manufacturer to ship a repaired or replaced firearm back to you, most shippers will not, and some manufacturers will not. There is the law, and then there are lawyers and civil liability concerns.
Another often mis stated “requirement” is that if a firearm is returned to the factory for repair and it is replaced, a new 4473 and background check must be completed. That’s not the case, it just has to be the same type and kind of firearm and properly documented in the acquisition and disposition records.
But good luck with that. I doubt any FFL will go that route and will instead require a new 4473 and NICS check, as well as any other state required processes. Similarly, some manufacturers will require the replacement be shipped to an FFL, even if they have a shipping contract that otherwise allows it to be shipped direct to the customer.
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But…the bottom line is that we buy guns from brick and mortar gun shops due to the higher level of service they are supposed to provide. They should not be charging you transfer fees for a warranty return anymore than they would charge you a transfer fee for an in store purchase.
It’s also not a transfer under the law and thus they doubly should not be charging you a transfer fee.
If I encounter a shop that won’t facilitate a warranty return, or expects to charge me a transfer fee in the process, I make a point of never darkening their door again. Inevitably, I get to watch those shops go out of business. There’s another of those local shops going out of business at the end of this year and I won’t miss them at all.
Yes sir, that’s my understanding as well. Fed Ex for example required handguns be shipped at minimum second day air. That was because the more time it spent in their system and the less rigorous the time lines and tracking, the more likely firearms were to disappear.
That’s very much an internal problem, not a porch piracy issue.
It has to go through the appropriate hoops, not necessarily all the hoops, and the FFL should know the requirements.
The FFL can certainly exceed those requirements by requiring a new 4473, NICS check etc, and other state requirements might be in excess of federal requirements.
But as a matter of customer service, a gun shop should not be charging you transfer fees for a repair or replacement under warranty for a firearm you purchased from them.
Charging you transfer fees under the guise of “it’s the law” is just BS.
sbrmike
US Veteran
You could have a friend or relative be at your house and sign for it at your house. Tracking is available. You will know what day it will be arriving. Or pay the FFL and do the drill.
Everything BB57 outlined is correct re: transfering, when paperwork is and is not required, etc.
One thing I think is being over looked in this is that the OP orig sent the pistol to S&W himself with a pre-paid shipping lable.
(That's if I understand the orig post correctly)
A Gunshop/gunsmith/FFL was not the returnee,,the owner was.
The pistol never went thru an FFL's 'books' as recv'd from the OP and then sent to S&W for the repair work.
So, when S&W wants to return it, S&W can return it directly to the orig owner as already outlined,,the OP.
He's not available to recv' it, so S&W will only send it to a Gunshop/FFL where the OP can 'pick it up'.
Since that Gunshop/FFL never had anything to do with the pistol to begin with in this repair, it was (I'm assuming) never logged into their book as an acquisition from the OP and then Disposition (sent to S&W ) for the repair.
If the FFL/Gunshop receives the pistol from S&W with instructions that it is for transfer to the OP, the FFL has to then book it in as an Acquisition from S&W and then back out as Transfered To (Disposition) to the OP.
A 4473 and Nics check required.
It's a new Acquisition Firearm in his/her Book.
Not a Warranty Returned firearm in their (separate) Repair Book
The FFL never sent it to S&W for repair to begin with,,the OP did.
It has to go out on either a 4473/Nics or to another FFL
Every Disposition in the Acquisition/Disposition Book has to be cleared with either a 4473/Nics or a transfer to another valid FFL holder.
One thing I think is being over looked in this is that the OP orig sent the pistol to S&W himself with a pre-paid shipping lable.
(That's if I understand the orig post correctly)
A Gunshop/gunsmith/FFL was not the returnee,,the owner was.
The pistol never went thru an FFL's 'books' as recv'd from the OP and then sent to S&W for the repair work.
So, when S&W wants to return it, S&W can return it directly to the orig owner as already outlined,,the OP.
He's not available to recv' it, so S&W will only send it to a Gunshop/FFL where the OP can 'pick it up'.
Since that Gunshop/FFL never had anything to do with the pistol to begin with in this repair, it was (I'm assuming) never logged into their book as an acquisition from the OP and then Disposition (sent to S&W ) for the repair.
If the FFL/Gunshop receives the pistol from S&W with instructions that it is for transfer to the OP, the FFL has to then book it in as an Acquisition from S&W and then back out as Transfered To (Disposition) to the OP.
A 4473 and Nics check required.
It's a new Acquisition Firearm in his/her Book.
Not a Warranty Returned firearm in their (separate) Repair Book
The FFL never sent it to S&W for repair to begin with,,the OP did.
It has to go out on either a 4473/Nics or to another FFL
Every Disposition in the Acquisition/Disposition Book has to be cleared with either a 4473/Nics or a transfer to another valid FFL holder.
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luvsmiths
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Yup they do. And you have to 4473 it out and pay. Unless he gives you a break. Once it is logged onto his books, it is no longer LEGALLY your gun.
They absolutely do.
..and if you want it back because it does not sell (for example), the FFL must do a 4473/NICS on you the consignee for you to get 'your' gun returned to you.
Aquisition (from the consignee)
/ Disposition (4473/Nics or to another valid FFL. Doesn't matter if that is a new buyer or the orig consignee
Same with a Pawned Firearm being returned to the person who pawned it.
I have a CHP so no NICS check required .
I’m not sure the FFL is the bad guy here. There’s no mention of the OP buying the S&W from the FFL. Not only that, like so many things today it’s a manufacturer warranty. Not a retailer warranty. FFLs provide a service. People generally get PAID when they provide a service. At the very minimum the FFL is entitled to pass along cost to you. In NY it cost the FFL $9 for a gun background check and $2.50 for an ammo background check.
Perhaps, I am got my info from the FedEx and UPS reps; reading between the lines, of course.
However, if the guns are being lost before the delivery drivers get it, why would shipping it to an FFL reduce theft?
