Finger on the Trigger?

[johnsonl]

It's all about liability. If I ever get dragged into court to testify about a training regimen, I will be able to say that I train my shooters to keep their finger out of the trigger guard until they are on target and ready to fire. It will then be the shooter's "lie-ability" to get him/herself out of that particular pickle.

 

[Onomea]

My observation is that the best gunhands in the old days were not necessarily the safest guys to be around. E.g., Bill Jordan pluggin' the guy on the other side of the wall while practicing his fast draw. Not saying I know anywhere near as much as those guys did, but I do think I am as safe or safer. Wear a seatbelt when I drive, too, and insist anyone else in the car does as well if I am driving. Cars did not even have seatbelts when I was a kid -- or padded dashboards for that matter.

I am in favor of finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target, and would apppreciate my shooting companions to be of like mind. That said, exposed trigger guard on a revo in a well fit holster does not bother me.

And above all: Muzzle control.

 

[oldafsp]

Finger control is of the utmost importance.... be it horizontal or verticle..

Improper finger control may lead to dysfunction. Bad words and other assorted issues.(read on it gets better)

AD: In our world : Accidental Discharge

You really didn't mean to fire that weapon, but did.

I got to expirence one up close one night.

We had a young deputy that was nearing the end of his 6 month probationary period. In the last week of this his FTO turned him over to a Sgt for evaluation.

I drew this young fellow on a Thursday night. I was assigned to the 3-11 trick. Good kid, knew his stuff and showed a lot of street smarts.

We had handled the routine number of calls and traffic stops during the shift. Long about a little after 10 pm we get dispatched for a possible armed robbery in progress.

We were the closest 2 man unit, maybe 7 or 8 minutes away. 2 other units were dispatched along with us. We had a Plymouth Gran Fury, only about 3 weeks old.

I told him to get the shotgun out of the rack (on the dash)and get it ready. We would be first on the scene by a couple of minutes at least.

When we approached the intersection of a state highway from the county road we were on, you could see a quarter of a mile each way. I think we were running about 80 when I crossed the intersection, and got some air under us....when we came down....

BOOM

The car is filled with a strange dust and I don't hear so well out my right ear...****..the car seems ok so I jam my foot back in it.

Wellllll..he had his finger in the trigger guard of that 870 riot gun. 1 round 00 buck right through the roof. The strange dust was from the headliner being blown apart.

He kept his cool though, ejected the empty and left the slide open until we arrived on the scene. The bad guys had made their getaway and were caught the next day.

When the other units arrived, they were all aghast at how my car looked...that 00 round blew the right side of the light bar almost in half, the lenses shattered and one of the motors was gone completely.

The paperwork was a nightmare to say the least. He had to complete another 2 weeks of training on the dept. range per the Undersheriff.

I still don't hear so good outta that ear....

But now thinking back, I do chuckle once in awhile.

 

[jag312]

Things have changed so much in the last few years, that new shooters are paralyzed by the mere sight of some old "gunsel" packin' a revolver in a Jordan style holster, or a finger in the trigger guard of a double action gun.

.

Don't call me a gunsel. This is the definition of the term "gunsel" as used in The Maltese Falcon:


When Dashell Hammett wrote the novel The Maltese Falcon, he described Wilmer as a "catamite" (a young man in a sexual relationship with an older man). The publisher objected, so Hammett changed it to "gunsel," an obscure bit of street slang with the same meaning. Because so few people were familiar with the term, it snuck past the Breen Office and into the finished film.

Most people who watch the movie assume "gunsel" is just another word for "gun man," and many subsequent novels and films noir have misused the term as such.

 

[keith44spl]

This thread brings to mind the exposed trigger guard holsters that so many of us old pharts foolishly carried for decades without accidentally shooting our butts off.

Things have changed so much in the last few years, that new shooters are paralyzed by the mere sight of some old "gunsel" packin' a revolver in a Jordan style holster, or a finger in the trigger guard of a double action gun.

Technology don't replace training and constant practice.

I have been in shooting incidents where a "secure" holster or a two stage procedure to get your finger on the trigger in a fast draw would have got me killed.

Don't call me a gunsel. This is the definition of the term "gunsel" as used in The Maltese Falcon:


When Dashell Hammett wrote the novel The Maltese Falcon, he described Wilmer as a "catamite" (a young man in a sexual relationship with an older man). The publisher objected, so Hammett changed it to "gunsel," an obscure bit of street slang with the same meaning. Because so few people were familiar with the term, it snuck past the Breen Office and into the finished film.

Most people who watch the movie assume "gunsel" is just another word for "gun man," and many subsequent novels and films noir have misused the term as such.

I think Iggy sed, "Old gunsel" as apposed to a "young gunsel".

Where's my funk & wagnalls...I's got to look this'n up for future references.

Su Amigo,
Dave

 

[airman]

I have three hammer-fired guns in which, when in SA mode, I will keep my finger far from the trigger. My carry is drawn with the safety coming off and the finger alongside the trigger. In DA the trigger has to be deliberate so there is time to change my mind.

 

[feralmerril]

Boy, I am gettting a education! Gunsel? Who would have thunk?

 

[jimmyj]

Yes, ALL this finger off the trigger "stuff' is fairly new.
It is a good thing IMHO, but I am old school from back in the day.

We could run after a Felon, climb a fence or three, tackle the low life, and pistol whip him, all with our finger on the trigger, with not an errant round fired... Well most of the time any way... I never let one go...

But...
Truth is things change. We learn and get safer, we wear bullet resistant vests, wear seatbelts, don't drink and drive, etc...

"Pistol Whip" It is recommended that a revolver with a ejector rod housing be used to avoid damaging your weaopn.
Also a "Convoy Blackjack" is good for getting a suspect's attention.
or so I have been told.

 

[jag312]

The Maltese Falcon - let's talk about the bird extract - YouTube

Does the ending of this scene have a new meaning? It is San Francisco. What do you expect?

 

[NE450No2]

Well I always carried a 44 Magnum, or a 45 ACP S&W, with the ejector shroud, or a 1911. I have Pistol Whipped criminals with both.
They should consider themselves lucky, as I determined it was not really necessary to shoot them, even though it would have been determined to be legal to do so... But as they were non complient, a thump or three was necessary to ensure my safety, and thus their safety as well...

Once upon a time I wacked a fella, that had just shot another fella, in a Mexican bar, with my hand, instead of my Mod 25-2. I was afraid I might bend the barrel, as I needed to hit him HARD...
My wack was effective, but I broke the bone in the bottom of the palm of my hand.

I had to shoot IPSC Matches, for the next 3 months left handed.

From then on I hit them with the handgun, HARD.

 

[NE450No2]

"Pistol Whip" It is recommended that a revolver with a ejector rod housing be used to avoid damaging your weaopn.
Also a "Convoy Blackjack" is good for getting a suspect's attention.
or so I have been told.

Blackjacks, Slappers, Nightsticks and collaspable batons work pretty good.

However back in the day "Choking Out" worked best of all.
If you were good at "Snot Locking" some one out, that was the best of all, as once unconscious, you could handcuff them, and when they woke up they usually had a new attitude, were happy to still be alive, and were uninjured. No trip to the hospital, just straight to jail.

I actually recieved a Commendation from a fella I Choked Out.

When we got to Jail, he asked to see a Supervisor. He told the Supervisor how I had Choked him out, and not injured him, stating how he had acted, and deserved to have his "butt" whipped, and how well I had treated him, after he woke up...

The SGT, looked at me and stated, I am going to write this up, Internal Affaris "ain't" going to believe this... [All Comendations or Complaints went to IAD first].

I am probably the only Police Officer on the Planet, that recieved a Commendation for Choking Out a Fella, from the Fella that was choked out...

 

[oldafsp]

Man at least you didn't get a PC (personell complaint) like I did...

For "Pulling the driver out of the vent window of the vehicle"

At no time, did any part of him leave the car through the vent window....

And I only used my jack a couple of times. Once on a subject who wouldn't put his
legs in the car....one whack on the kneecap was all it took..

 

[Iggy]

I guess I used the wrong term here. I heard it used at times many decades ago and used it here to express the times in
which I lived.


I don't disparage seat belts, better training and better equipment available today.

I was just saying that many of us old timers enforced the law, dispensed justice as we saw it in the world we lived in, survived gunfights with the equipment and training we had.

We seldom had partners, backup, or adequate communications.

We did the best we could with what we had and we are proud of that fact.

When we are belittled by those that never faced what we did under the circumstances we did, it smarts.

I will further say that I could not and would not work under the circumstances and constraints our LEO deal with today.

I and many of us old timers wouldn't last a week in a patrol car today.

Those that stand behind the badge today have my utmost respect and admiration, it just smarts when the tactics, equipment, and procedures that got us through the shift and let us go home at night come under instant derision today.

I'm done.

 

[NE450No2]

Man at least you didn't get a PC (personell complaint) like I did...

For "Pulling the driver out of the vent window of the vehicle"

At no time, did any part of him leave the car through the vent window....

And I only used my jack a couple of times. Once on a subject who wouldn't put his
legs in the car....one whack on the kneecap was all it took..

I pulled many a person through the "vent window"... Or at least I tried to...

In truth I did "snatch" many an uncooperative "citizen" by his head/neck, through the drivers door window. I learned early on to be sure they had the vehicle in Park...

 

[keith44spl]

Well Boys,

I'll jest tell y'all...Pistol whippin is a lost art.

Lonesome Dove..Gus deals with a surly bartender - YouTube

The slap works jest 'bout as good as anything,
but sometimes leaves blood on the side plate.


Su Amigo,
Dave

 

[Onomea]

Boy, I am gettting a education! Gunsel? Who would have thunk?

Just wanted to report that in my Websters New International Dictionary of the English Language, Second Edition, Unabridged, published in 1940, the word "gunsel" does not appear.

How-some-ever, if I plug "gunsel" into Google translate, and ask for the Japanese translation, I get the word "homo." (The Japanese language adopts foreign words, occasionally modifying the meaning but approximating the pronunciation, and it looks like this is such a case. Please note this is an etymological discussion. Take it elsewhere at your own peril!)

How-some-further-ever, if I look up "gunsel" in my Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, the 1977 edition, "gunsel" is defined as slang for gunman.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm......

 

[jimmyj]

Lesson Learned:
After a high speed pursuit when the BG's vehicle is finally stopped due to the BG's vehicle running out of gas--When attempting to exit the BG from his vehicle to inform him that what he did was VERY, VERY NAUGHTY, made sure the BG's seat belt is off--it mades the exiting so much easier.

 

[oldafsp]

Little adrenaline rush there Jimmy ?????

I am envisioning that episode and having a real hard time not rolling on the floor hysterically.

Theres been a lot of old stories in this thread...those of us who were fortunate enough to survive and live to tell them.

I think Iggy hit it right on the head. We didn't have the greatest training like the new folks do now. We learned by our
mistakes and the advise and counsel of the older guys.

And hopefully, we went home at the end of everyshift.

And we did our best to pass on that expirence to the new guys coming on the job.

The cops I met as young boy influenced me greatly. They treated people with respect and courtesy...until it came time to get down to business. I respected and admired them. And even more so now. Now I understand what "carrying yourself" is all about.

 

[redlevel]

I guess most patrol cars have a glass bubble separating the rear seat from the front now. Back in the day, our City PD cars had a section of expanded metal welded in to the side pillar separating the driver from the rear occupants. An officer I rode with a lot very often brought people in with the imprint of the expanded metal on their face and head, especially if they happened to be cussing him, which was often the case. He could truthfully say that he never laid a hand on them, he just had to make a couple of panic stops between where he picked them up and the jail.

 

[jlrhiner]

IMHO, most of that silliness came about after the switch to semi-autos for the LE crowd. I used to argue with a copper friend about the best style of gun, holster, hairdo etc. He carried a 686, and I a 1911A1. Of course, I was wrong until the switch was made to Glocks, then semi-autos ruled.

As many of you carried a 1911, you know that a reload was finished by thumbing the slide release. Not on a Glock. You are supposed pull the slide back and release it. When I drew the 1911, my finger was on the trigger the minute it cleared the holster. Not on a Glock.

Most of that started about the time Glocks became popular.