Firing Pin Failures....MIM!!!???

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Ultima-Ratio

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I did a search here and it's apparant that I'm not the only victim of a fractured MIM firing pin.

Thanks to this forum I found a supplier of forged replacements, I can not understand how anyone could trust a replacement from S&W.
 
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I did a search here and it's apparant that I'm not the only victim of a fractured MIM firing pin.

Thanks to this forum I found a supplier of forged replacements, I can not understand how anyone could trust a replacement from S&W.
 
Are you talking about S&W revolvers? The firing pins in FMFP revolvers are titanium. The only firing pins that break are the C&S extended ones.
 
Originally posted by tomcatt51:
Are you talking about S&W revolvers? The firing pins in FMFP revolvers are titanium. The only firing pins that break are the C&S extended ones.
Click to expand...

First I ever heard of a stock SW pin breaking. The C+S pins break like crazy.
 
tomcatt51
Member

Posted 30 November 2008 12:18 PM Hide Post
Are you talking about S&W revolvers? The firing pins in FMFP revolvers are titanium. The only firing pins that break are the C&S extended ones.

Really? So what with a lighter MIM hammer combined with a lighter more brittle FMFP it appears S&W is intentionally building unreliable
revolvers..you were aware that titanium is far more brittle than tool steel?

So watcha give me for the only broken FMFP (your words tomcat)

Yep, read all about the C&S right here thanks!

Search is your friend bounty hunter.
 
Originally posted by Ultima-Ratio:
you were aware that titanium is far more brittle than tool steel?

So watcha give me for the only broken FMFP (your words tomcat)
Click to expand...

At least you now know they're titanium not MIM (your words Ultima). No MIM bashing rights there. How brittle they are or aren't is a matter of heat treat. I did a serarch and couldn't find posts where the Ti pins were breaking. Just people feeling a need to replace them with extended pins and then wanting to know how to extract the broken (tool steel) extended pin. The "real steel" hammer mounted pins occaisionally break too.

Where did you find a forged firing pin for the S&W FMFP revolver? Who makes them?
 
I want to know were to get a Forged FMFP as well..
WERE??
Thanks
Gary/Hk
BTW I have a C&S extended FP in my 342Ti & it's been 100% since it's instaltion..
 
Originally posted by HEADKNOCKER:
I want to know were to get a Forged FMFP as well..
WERE??
Thanks
Gary/Hk
BTW I have a C&S extended FP in my 342Ti & it's been 100% since it's instaltion..
Click to expand...

Would be iteresting to know. It's an unlikely part to make as a forging.

As for your C&S pin, some people have had them live ok. My 625-8 came with one of the "short" Ti pins. I went thru (broke) 2 or 3 extended pins before I could get one of the longer S&W Ti pins.
 
I have one of the Longer Ti pin in the stash..
Don't realy plan on buying any newer revolvers anyhow if you know what I mean..
I remember reading here at the forum of someone else that made Firing Pins & supposebly they were better than the Cylinder & Slide made ones.
There's several people who would like to know..
WERE?? Someone Plese Tell Us!!
Thanks
Gary/Hk
 
Originally posted by HEADKNOCKER:
I have one of the Longer Ti pin in the stash..
Don't realy plan on buying any newer revolvers anyhow if you know what I mean..
I remember reading here at the forum of someone else that made Firing Pins & supposebly they were better than the Cylinder & Slide made ones.
There's several people who would like to know..
WERE?? Someone Plese Tell Us!!
Thanks
Gary/Hk
Click to expand...
Randy Lee / Apex Tactical makes one.
 
Originally posted by Spotteddog:
H/K,
That's the one I recall Tomcatt referring to in the past...
Click to expand...
I haven't used one of the Apex Tactical firing pins. I'm using the S&W Ti pins, but the Apex are the only ones I'm aware of other than C&S. The Apex pin also includes a firing pin spring.

Of course we're waiting to hear Ultima got a forged firing pin.
 
Send Randy an E-mail. He is very busy so it may take a little time but once he has the firing pins in stock you will be on his list.

I have one in each of my revolvers. No problems at all.
 
Search is your friend bounty hunter.
Click to expand...

???

Why would I search when I am one of the people who have posted that the C+S pins break.

I thought you had a different source which was breaking since the C+S failures are well established information.
 
tomcatt51
Member
Posted 30 November 2008 08:27 PM Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ultima-Ratio:
you were aware that titanium is far more brittle than tool steel?

So watcha give me for the only broken FMFP (your words tomcat)


At least you now know they're titanium not MIM (your words Ultima). No MIM bashing rights there. How brittle they are or aren't is a matter of heat treat. I did a serarch and couldn't find posts where the Ti pins were breaking. Just people feeling a need to replace them with extended pins and then wanting to know how to extract the broken (tool steel) extended pin. The "real steel" hammer mounted pins occaisionally break too.

Where did you find a forged firing pin for the S&W FMFP revolver? Who makes them?
Click to expand...


Spoke with Randy a bit ago, busy guy!

He sub-contracts the firing pin from a stainless (17-4?), yes gentlemen the S&W pin is MIM a MIM blend of titanium and god only knows what else. Check Brownells, they say MIM also.

Having seen multiple titanium firing pin failures in Glocks/1911s and various aftermarket Remington 700s the entire concept of titanium in a weapons ignition system is redickulous.

Forgot to write down the firing pin/spring unit cost, $29.95 shippeed???
 
Originally posted by tomcatt51:
Originally posted by HEADKNOCKER:
I want to know were to get a Forged FMFP as well..
WERE??
Thanks
Gary/Hk
BTW I have a C&S extended FP in my 342Ti & it's been 100% since it's instaltion..
Click to expand...

Would be iteresting to know. It's an unlikely part to make as a forging.

As for your C&S pin
Click to expand...

I didn't know the C+S pins were forged? I recall having to file the "flask marks" off them which were dragging in the firing pin channel so I thought they were either cast or MIM, but maybe they are forged and badly machined.
 
Originally posted by Ultima-Ratio:
tomcatt51
Member
Posted 30 November 2008 08:27 PM Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ultima-Ratio:
you were aware that titanium is far more brittle than tool steel?

So watcha give me for the only broken FMFP (your words tomcat)


At least you now know they're titanium not MIM (your words Ultima). No MIM bashing rights there. How brittle they are or aren't is a matter of heat treat. I did a serarch and couldn't find posts where the Ti pins were breaking. Just people feeling a need to replace them with extended pins and then wanting to know how to extract the broken (tool steel) extended pin. The "real steel" hammer mounted pins occaisionally break too.

Where did you find a forged firing pin for the S&W FMFP revolver? Who makes them?
Click to expand...


Spoke with Randy a bit ago, busy guy!

He sub-contracts the firing pin from a stainless (17-4?), yes gentlemen the S&W pin is MIM a MIM blend of titanium and god only knows what else.
Click to expand...

I thought everybody already knew that all the small piece parts on newer SW's were MIM. That's not news. For the record, MIM parts are not necessarily inferiror to forged if they are made right, but I thought that topic had already been beaten to death.
 
Originally posted by bountyhunter:
I didn't know the C+S pins were forged? I recall having to file the "flask marks" off them which were dragging in the firing pin channel so I thought they were either cast or MIM, but maybe they are forged and badly machined.
Click to expand...

I was told the C&S "extended" pins were 4140 and I assumed were made from bar stock. I've been wrong before.

I wouldn't take Brownell's part description as the last word. My official S&W parts book shows a MIM FMFP # that's listed as obsolete then a FMFP (current) that DOES NOT say MIM. Who knows, they are decidedly lighter than the C&S and are definitely non-magnetic. The S&W firing pins seem fine as long as they're the .492" (or longer) ones. There were some that were shorter (low .480's) and could be an issue. So much for flogging dead horses.
 
Randy said his FMFP was .500-.501, dang nice to know sizes...thanks tomcat!

I'm whipped into using throat reamers (chuckle, .501 is the reamer size I ordered for the .500s) on later Smyths and many Rugers, also gotta case harden the ejector center pins to prevent peening from heavy Alaska loads......add .500 grips to the Maggies

Bottom line folks, we all know why the Rugers are larger than Smyth counterparts right?

MIM being metal injected into a mould has inherent porosity (read weakness!) not found in forged metal..(carving the tenderloins from said dead horse..)
 
MIM being metal injected into a mould has inherent porosity (read weakness!) not found in forged metal
Click to expand...
No, it does not. You are confusing CAST with MIM. cast pices are significantly less dense than forged (like 60 - 70%) but MIM parts are as much as 95 - 98% as dense as forged metal.

Since MIM parts are injected into a mold, they have a possible flaw of having an air void if not done properly. That is not porousity and simply means the bozo making them did not control the consistency of the slurry.

You might want to actually read up on the MIM process. In a nutshell, a mixture of metal powder and polymer bond is forced into a mold. The "green" part is fired at a high enough temp to fuse the metal particles into solid metal. The only thing it has in common with casting is the use of a mold.
 
Bounty? Did you proof read your post?

The combination of plastic (read oil) and powdered metal (Which Metal?) is somehow as strong as forged steel?

Nonsense!

In layman's terms, Ruger vs Smyth cylinders the Smyth ALWAYS is stronger in destructive testing.

Read just add more 2400 until the cylinder blows, the Smyth always is stronger...duh.

BTW, mold is something that grows on bread among other things...the study of fungi is a wide open field btw....maybe a dozen experts worldwide.

My new Smyths tend to misfire in the cold and now break firing pins..the Rugers don't. I love my Smyths and will tinker when need be but do I have to whack an olde style hammer to fit (added weight?) plus find a forged FMFP for reliability?

I'm a 62yr olde smith that folks pay for expertise K? THIS is Alaska, critters will eat us. Care to share how YOU would prepare a new Smyth to avoid Murphys Laws?
 
Originally posted by Ultima-Ratio:
I love my Smyths and will tinker when need be but do I have to whack an olde style hammer to fit (added weight?) plus find a forged FMFP for reliability?
Click to expand...
The 5" PC 627's hammer is forged and is for the FMFP (pinned sear too). It would be a drop in for your 625-6. I just sold the one that came out of my 627.

FWIW I've weighed the MIM and forged parts and the MIM parts are quite a bit lighter.

I thought Ruger had gone (quite a few years ago) to injection molding (or investment castings?) for their revolver frames.
 
Originally posted by Ultima-Ratio:
Bounty? Did you proof read your post?

The combination of plastic (read oil) and powdered metal (Which Metal?) is somehow as strong as forged steel?

Nonsense!
Click to expand...
I'm not going to waste any more time arguing. One of my degrees is in mechanical engineering so I probably lose more knowledge on the subject of MIM when I sneeze than you seem willing to ever learn.

You can research MIM if you want to, but posting this:

The combination of plastic (read oil) and powdered metal (Which Metal?) is somehow as strong as forged steel?
Click to expand...

shows you have no clue. The polymer binders mixed with the powdered metal is burned out during the sintering process which fuses the particles into solid metal, the final piece does not contain the binders. It is about 95% - 98% as dense as a forged part. Like I said, the internet awaits if you actually want to learn something on a subject you clearly know nothing about. The difference between a well made MIM part and a forged part is miniscule in terms of tensile strength.
 
Originally posted by Ultima-Ratio:

My new Smyths tend to misfire in the cold
Click to expand...
Then they either need cleaning or repair, or need to be fed decent ammo. A maintained gun with full power springs will not misfire on decent ammo.

Originally posted by Ultima-Ratio:
BTW, mold is something that grows on bread among other things
Click to expand...
Uh huh

Originally posted by Ultima-Ratio:
I love my Smyths and will tinker when need be but do I have to whack an olde style hammer to fit (added weight?)?
Click to expand...
So, are you now saying a HEAVIER hammer will increase strike force to solve your misfires?

That will come as a real surprise to the dozens of people who sell low mass hammers and strikers for competition use specifically to allow good strike force with low power springs. Those silly people think reduced mass hammers increase strike energy....

Originally posted by Ultima-Ratio:
Care to share how YOU would prepare a new Smyth to avoid Murphys Laws?
Click to expand...
Are you asking how I tuned the dozen or more smiths I own and shoot in competition? That would require more time than I care to waste on this thread, but I'll guarantee you one thing: I can certainly make a new SW fire 100% reliably in any weather you can find. As for the massive plague of broken firing pins you claim: you may want to look up the definition of "anecdotal"....

The number of broken stock SW pins I have heard reported total exactly ONE: yours.
 
Originally posted by Ultima-Ratio:
Bounty? Did you proof read your post?

mold is something that grows on bread among other things...the study of fungi is a wide open field btw....maybe a dozen experts worldwide.
Click to expand...

OK, I think I understand: since my post contained the word "mold" and yours "mould":

Originally posted by Ultima-Ratio:

MIM being metal injected into a mould has inherent porosity
Click to expand...

I assume you are implying that I did not spell the word correctly in referring to a "mold" used to make a piece. You are wrong again:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mold

mold1 /mo?ld/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mohld] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun

1. a hollow form or matrix for giving a particular shape to something in a molten or plastic state.
2. the shape created or imparted to a thing by a mold.
3. something formed in or on a mold: a mold of jelly.
4. a frame on which something is formed or made.
5. shape or form.
Click to expand...

As you can see from the dictionary, my use of the word "mold" is correct.

That doesn't come as a big shock to me: at last count, I had about 40 published articles in various trade magazines. I think I can handle four letter words like "mold".
 
Originally posted by bountyhunter:
Originally posted by Ultima-Ratio:
Bounty? Did you proof read your post?

mold is something that grows on bread among other things...the study of fungi is a wide open field btw....maybe a dozen experts worldwide.
Click to expand...

OK, I think I understand: since my post contained the word "mold" and yours "mould":

Originally posted by Ultima-Ratio:

MIM being metal injected into a mould has inherent porosity
Click to expand...

I assume you are implying that I did not spell the word correctly in referring to a "mold" used to make a piece. You are wrong again:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mold

mold1 /mo?ld/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mohld] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun

1. a hollow form or matrix for giving a particular shape to something in a molten or plastic state.
2. the shape created or imparted to a thing by a mold.
3. something formed in or on a mold: a mold of jelly.
4. a frame on which something is formed or made.
5. shape or form.
Click to expand...

As you can see from the dictionary, my use of the word "mold" is correct.

That doesn't come as a big shock to me: at last count, I had about 40 published articles in various trade magazines. I think I can handle four letter words like "mold".
Click to expand...


Ahhhhh, I understand now! Bountyhunter is in marketing, or if I may...a ragwriter paid to sell a product. Yep, I got it.

I'm a lowly consumer/smith and Master Finisher tho I have studied some on the psychology of marketing/hyperboly...chuckle.

You ever sell anything to Industrial Finishing?
 
In layman's terms, Ruger vs Smyth cylinders the Smyth ALWAYS is stronger in destructive testing.
Click to expand...

I hope Ultima-Ratio isn't implying that Ruger cylinders are weaker than Smiths due to them being cast vs. Smiths being forged. Ruger cylinders are not and have never been cast; they're still cut from round stock just like Smiths. It's one part that's still cheaper to cut than to cast.
 
Originally posted by Ultima-Ratio:

Ahhhhh, I understand now! Bountyhunter is in marketing, or if I may...a ragwriter paid to sell a product. Yep, I got it.
Click to expand...

Clearly what you understand on this subject could be inscribed on the head of a pin with room left for the Gettysburg Address.

Please keep your smart mouth personal attacks to yourself in the future.


Originally posted by Ultima-Ratio:
I'm a lowly consumer/smith and Master Finisher tho I have studied some on the psychology of marketing/hyperboly...chuckle.
Click to expand...

Too bad you never studied anything about metallurgy, sintering, or how MIM parts are actually made. The thread might not have been such a colossal waste of time.... and if you studied English, you'd know the word is "hyperbole".


Originally posted by Ultima-Ratio:In layman's terms, Ruger vs Smyth cylinders the Smyth ALWAYS is stronger in destructive testing.
Click to expand...

What strength? Tensile strength, shear strength? Which SW cylinder, stainless or carbon steel?

Never mind, I forgot what I was asking for a moment.
 
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