gregintenn
Member
Yes, Rock Island handguns are economy grade. Good guns, but not in the arena of Korth, Manhurin, etc. Not sure Bersa belongs up there either.
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First Class vs. Economy Class Handguns
- Thread starter Sigmund Sauer
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Not a Kimber fanboy, but wouldn't classify it as 2nd tier.
IMHO, this data could be more fairly portrayed with overlapping sets, as with a Venn diagram. There is often a wide range of perceived quality spread across a single manufacturer's offerings, as well as some 'budget' makers selling some truly excellent products.
GtownGeorge
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Can't figure out why you would say a RIA is not in the same class as a Korth. I am not sure anything on the list is in the same class as a Korth. Let's use cars as an example, RIA is a Chevy and a Korth is a Lambo.
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Sigmund Sauer
Member
I understand completely what you're saying, but that's a discussion for another time. Here I am only concerned with the question: are theirs among the best of derringers? And you seem to be saying they are.
OK, thanks, will be moving them to regular First Class then.
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Sigmund Sauer
Member
OK, moving Bersa to economy.
OP
Sigmund Sauer
Member
Thanks. Would love it if we could get some more thoughts on whether Kimber belongs in the S&W category or in the Taurus category.
OP
Sigmund Sauer
Member
One of their workers, a guy called Jimenez, bought the company for 500k and continued it under his own name. It's under "Economy" as you would expect...
Kimber still makes excellent 1911s.
They get a unjustified bad rap for a few reasons:
1) People buy them, run home and install new springs, shock buffers, etc, to "upgrade" them, and then wonder why they won't run. That's particularly the case with the commander and officer framed models where the slide over run is already limited. With those models in particular swapping springs and adding aftermarket gizmos seriously screws with he engineering.
2) Kimbers have fairly tight tolerances and you won't see the great reliability they are capable of producing, until you've put a couple hundred rounds through them. The average internet expert is already bashing it on his favorite forum before that happens.
3) Many 1911 owners schooled on series 70 and 80 Colts disassemble and re-assemble Kimber 1911s incorrectly. The Schwartz safety system is well designed and very durable, but it can be damaged by shooters who remove and put the slide back on the pistol incorrectly. It's activated by the grip safety, not the trigger, so if you try to remove the slide, or replace the slide with the grip safety depressed, the pin that de-activates the firing pin safety will be elevated into the path of the slide you are trying to remove or install on the frame.
The more intellectually challenged shooters will then try to muscle it on or off with a couple of good firm whacks while tightly gripping the grip (and depressing the grip safety. Eventually, the pin cracks and shears resulting in a failure. Which of course the shooter then blames on the design, on Kimber, or on pretty much anyone or anything other than themselves.
4) A related issue with many 1911s, not just Kimbers is that many 1911 shooters don't understand 1911 magazine feed lips and feed geometry of a 1911 in general. They also don't understand the relationship between feed lip design, bullet point shape and feed geometry.
If you have a Kimber and you don't mess with the springs or the extractor, and you use a Kimber mag, or an after market mag properly matched to the point shape of the bullet, and you'll get great reliability. Fail to understand any of the above and you run the risk of having some feed issues. Just don't blame the pistol.
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I own a Gold Match II and it's both superbly accurate and extremely reliable.
The same applies to my Kimber Ultra Carry II - it's unbelievably accurate for a short 1911 and mine has bene utterly reliable from about 200 rounds onward. The main thing with the Ultra Carry and Pro Carry pistol is to change the recoup springs on schedule - with stock replacements.
They get a unjustified bad rap for a few reasons:
1) People buy them, run home and install new springs, shock buffers, etc, to "upgrade" them, and then wonder why they won't run. That's particularly the case with the commander and officer framed models where the slide over run is already limited. With those models in particular swapping springs and adding aftermarket gizmos seriously screws with he engineering.
2) Kimbers have fairly tight tolerances and you won't see the great reliability they are capable of producing, until you've put a couple hundred rounds through them. The average internet expert is already bashing it on his favorite forum before that happens.
3) Many 1911 owners schooled on series 70 and 80 Colts disassemble and re-assemble Kimber 1911s incorrectly. The Schwartz safety system is well designed and very durable, but it can be damaged by shooters who remove and put the slide back on the pistol incorrectly. It's activated by the grip safety, not the trigger, so if you try to remove the slide, or replace the slide with the grip safety depressed, the pin that de-activates the firing pin safety will be elevated into the path of the slide you are trying to remove or install on the frame.
The more intellectually challenged shooters will then try to muscle it on or off with a couple of good firm whacks while tightly gripping the grip (and depressing the grip safety. Eventually, the pin cracks and shears resulting in a failure. Which of course the shooter then blames on the design, on Kimber, or on pretty much anyone or anything other than themselves.
4) A related issue with many 1911s, not just Kimbers is that many 1911 shooters don't understand 1911 magazine feed lips and feed geometry of a 1911 in general. They also don't understand the relationship between feed lip design, bullet point shape and feed geometry.
If you have a Kimber and you don't mess with the springs or the extractor, and you use a Kimber mag, or an after market mag properly matched to the point shape of the bullet, and you'll get great reliability. Fail to understand any of the above and you run the risk of having some feed issues. Just don't blame the pistol.
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I own a Gold Match II and it's both superbly accurate and extremely reliable.
The same applies to my Kimber Ultra Carry II - it's unbelievably accurate for a short 1911 and mine has bene utterly reliable from about 200 rounds onward. The main thing with the Ultra Carry and Pro Carry pistol is to change the recoup springs on schedule - with stock replacements.
LVSteve
Member
I would put Steyr higher than economy class. Several guys round here and me have owned/do own Steyr M9 or S9 pistols and they work well.
Arik
Member
What is your meaning of "economy"? Is it the price or the quality or both?
Reason I'm asking is cause you have a few manufacturers in there that while they are cheap in price their quality is quite good. Canik and Grand Power to name a few. Zastava is one that doesn't quite fit anywhere. For a military handgun from the 50s it's good, it's reliable. For a modern gun it's lacking a few modern features
Reason I'm asking is cause you have a few manufacturers in there that while they are cheap in price their quality is quite good. Canik and Grand Power to name a few. Zastava is one that doesn't quite fit anywhere. For a military handgun from the 50s it's good, it's reliable. For a modern gun it's lacking a few modern features
You put Zastava in the second tier and that's somewhat unjustified.
They make superb Mauser style bolt action rifles and have done so since 1924. They also use their own in-house barrels and they are superbly made and capable of excellent sub MOA accuracy.
The problem is that from time to time importers like CAI sell them with rather crude stocks - although the metalwork is still very well done, with a very nice polish and a wonderful deep blue finish.
Zastava made the Zastava Model 70 for Interarms for nearly 30 years, who sold them as the Interarms Mk X. Interarms also sold the Zastava Model 85 as the Mini Mk X for about 15 years. They were available in both complete rifle format and as barreled actions, often used to create some very nice custom rifles.
Charles Daly sold the Model 70 and Model 85 with composite stocks and Remington sold them as the Rem 798 and Rem 799 with laminated wood stocks. Which of course mean that between the Mk X, Mini Mk X, 798, 799 and Charles Daly models out there, you can readily find an after market or NOS stock to replace what is on the current CAI imports, and end up with a nice rifle with decent wood, for a lot less than you could buying something comparable.
The same applies to the CZ 99 Precision - a .22 LR bolt action repeater that has been imported by Remington as the Model 5, as well as by Charles Daly and currently by CAI. They are also well made rifles with very heavy, stiff receivers that are capable of excellent accuracy.
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You've also painted everything made by Chiappa with the same broad brush.
Chiappa does market some seriously low end firearms. However, Armi-Sport (which produces the actual firearms as a subsidiary of Chiappa) makes some excellent reproductions of various rifles like the 1859, 1863, and 1874 Sharps, as well as a few different variants of the Winchester 1892, all of which are very nicely made. You'll find them sold by Cimarron and other vendors who order them with very high specifications for finish and function.
They make superb Mauser style bolt action rifles and have done so since 1924. They also use their own in-house barrels and they are superbly made and capable of excellent sub MOA accuracy.
The problem is that from time to time importers like CAI sell them with rather crude stocks - although the metalwork is still very well done, with a very nice polish and a wonderful deep blue finish.
Zastava made the Zastava Model 70 for Interarms for nearly 30 years, who sold them as the Interarms Mk X. Interarms also sold the Zastava Model 85 as the Mini Mk X for about 15 years. They were available in both complete rifle format and as barreled actions, often used to create some very nice custom rifles.
Charles Daly sold the Model 70 and Model 85 with composite stocks and Remington sold them as the Rem 798 and Rem 799 with laminated wood stocks. Which of course mean that between the Mk X, Mini Mk X, 798, 799 and Charles Daly models out there, you can readily find an after market or NOS stock to replace what is on the current CAI imports, and end up with a nice rifle with decent wood, for a lot less than you could buying something comparable.
The same applies to the CZ 99 Precision - a .22 LR bolt action repeater that has been imported by Remington as the Model 5, as well as by Charles Daly and currently by CAI. They are also well made rifles with very heavy, stiff receivers that are capable of excellent accuracy.
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You've also painted everything made by Chiappa with the same broad brush.
Chiappa does market some seriously low end firearms. However, Armi-Sport (which produces the actual firearms as a subsidiary of Chiappa) makes some excellent reproductions of various rifles like the 1859, 1863, and 1874 Sharps, as well as a few different variants of the Winchester 1892, all of which are very nicely made. You'll find them sold by Cimarron and other vendors who order them with very high specifications for finish and function.
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I would not include Arsenal in the list of top tier guns. I would probably move STI to boutique and Sphinx to 1st class. The rest of the uncertain list should go to economy or "plan B."
I am not aware of a Rossi from Italy. Rossi has always been from Brazil so far as I know. Rossi was actually a very good revolver, but since Taurus bought Rossi, I am not so sure.
Caracal and Steyr probably move to the first list.
Those would be my mods to your list.
I am not aware of a Rossi from Italy. Rossi has always been from Brazil so far as I know. Rossi was actually a very good revolver, but since Taurus bought Rossi, I am not so sure.
Caracal and Steyr probably move to the first list.
Those would be my mods to your list.
What is the definition of "quality?"
On the list I see some economy class guns, like Arcus, that are serious military grade, but not pretty. Some of the pretty boutique guns, while very expensive, are not up to the task of serving a soldier or policeman.
On the list I see some economy class guns, like Arcus, that are serious military grade, but not pretty. Some of the pretty boutique guns, while very expensive, are not up to the task of serving a soldier or policeman.
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Sigmund Sauer
Member
Thank you very much. I have only taken their handguns into consideration. Those rifles do look beautiful, and I am aware they have a very good reputation. I have read their handguns aren't quite as good.
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Sigmund Sauer
Member
Interesting thinking. I totally see what you mean. I'm probably going for something like a feel of supreme quality and solidity. There are Toyotas that are perhaps as sturdy and as reliable as the best Mercedeses. But no Toyota feels like a First Class car. They do what is necessary and they do that well. But they don't try and go beyond.
In First Class, I am only looking to include guns that someone with unlimited means might still choose to buy. No one would probably choose a Taurus over a S&W or a Sig if money wasn't an issue (and it didn't happen to be the Curve he was in love with). That's what I mean. I'm looking for guns you wouldn't be surprised to see a billionaire carry.
First Class:
Rolls Royce
Jaguar
Mercedes
Ferrari
BMW
Cadillac
Range Rover
Economy:
Chevrolet
Volkswagen
Toyota
Opel
I know that it would probably make sense to have a "business class" section - (a Glock is not a Sig or even an H&K), but I prefer to keep it simple.
(Recently, I chatted with a Santa Monica police officer. He carried a H&K pistol, and was very proud: "LAPD - they have Glocks. They can't afford these.")
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Kframerbluvr
Member
Thanks for your comments on Kimber. There is a lot of Series II Kimber bashing on other forums I read. My old pre-Swartz Kimber is very reliable and a great shooter.
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Sigmund Sauer
Member
Looking for something that someone would buy who knew a lot about guns and for whom price was not an issue. A gun you wouldn't be surprised to see a billionaire carry. Today. Only present day counts.
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