First Class vs. Economy Class Handguns

[Muss Muggins]

If one post can move a manufacturer up or down on this list, what exactly are we accomplishing here?

 

[Andyd]

If one post can move a manufacturer up or down on this list, what exactly are we accomplishing here?

Basically the original list started based on opinion, not experience. So, any credible post with a first hand experience is a further factor in classifying the gun. If it will find resistance from the board members, it is at the OP's discretion to move it around.

I doubt that many people have Brian's (BC1023) first hand experience when it comes to fine 1911s, SIG P210s, and a few other high end handguns.

In my case, I own 11 Korths, have visited the factory and have an invitation to the shot show by Korth's CEO, Mr. Andreas Weber. I also own/owned several Uberti revolvers, have handled and shot many more, and follow the discussions about them on several forums.

Out of the three Keltec products I owned, only a Sub2k worked reliably, the P11 and P32 did not. The P11 still did not work after a trip to the factory. I shot a P11 owned by someone else that worked flawlessly.

 

[Sigmund Sauer]

Isn't Stoeger owned by Beretta now? I've handled one of their versions of the Cougar. I was impressed with the fit and finish.

Thanks for that insight. Do you know what there flagship model is? Should I move them to Class A?

 

[Sigmund Sauer]

Wow.

Go search the last Valtro 1911 that sold on Gunbroker and then move it into the "A" class.

Looks like you're right. Will do.

 

[Sigmund Sauer]

Basically the original list started based on opinion, not experience. So, any credible post with a first hand experience is a further factor in classifying the gun. If it will find resistance from the board members, it is at the OP's discretion to move it around.

I doubt that many people have Brian's (BC1023) first hand experience when it comes to fine 1911s, SIG P210s, and a few other high end handguns.

In my case, I own 11 Korths, have visited the factory and have an invitation to the shot show by Korth's CEO, Mr. Andreas Weber. I also own/owned several Uberti revolvers, have handled and shot many more, and follow the discussions about them on several forums.

Out of the three Keltec products I owned, only a Sub2k worked reliably, the P11 and P32 did not. The P11 still did not work after a trip to the factory. I shot a P11 owned by someone else that worked flawlessly.

Thank you very much. You are entirely right. I am trying to benefit from the huge experience of board members.

You own 11 Korths!?! You are a very rich man, indeed! Can you tell me which of the Korths could be considered their "flagship"? Their most impressive, universally admired gun?

Also, should I put down the Sub2k as Keltec's flagship? Given you felt it was the only good one?

 

[Sigmund Sauer]

Also, by what seems like a kind of consensus, I am moving Browning and Kimber to Business Class (which is still a solid class).

 

[Andyd]

I do not consider Keltec's products very well made - even if they work. My Sub2K had a red plastic front sight that disappeared in low light and the inline stock that allows folding is far from perfect for a comfortable hold. Nevertheless, it shot well and with its weight shot recovery was very quick.

I consider the golden days of Korth the days when they had their factory in Ratzeburg and the the action of the revolver was completed by adding the double action bearing to the trigger. That happened in 1969. The .357 Mag revolvers were still 5 shot revolvers until the inception of the Combat models around 1973.

From 1975 until Willi Korth sold the company in 1980, the quality reached its pinnacle with the vented rib and finally all were 6 shot models. After the sale of the company there were many revolvers with less than perfect action produced and it took the new crew a few years to get things right again.

The new production in Lollar is also excellent but for me it is cost prohibitive to purchase a new Korth.

BC1023 also has a Korth revolver and one of their semi-auto pistols in his outstanding collection.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Not sure how Chiappa got into Class C. You might want to ask Erich about that. Probably A.

You might also want to check stats on how many people are reading this. Browning Class B? I don't think so. It was Class A when the founders of some other A companies weren't born yet.

 

[05CarbonDRZ]

If one post can move a manufacturer up or down on this list, what exactly are we accomplishing here?

Absolutely nothing.

 

[BigBill]

I'm not rich but I could buy what ever I want. But I'm frugal. But with my many years of hunting and shooting what's the diff?

My $700 Remington 700 in 338wm '94 will shoot the X out in two rounds do I need a more expensive rifle?

My basic affordable 1911's are reliable and dependable as any high priced 1911 is. To me my colt, SA, AO and norinco are tops. They worked right out of the box.

To me the revolvers made by colt, python, s&w k & n frames and the Rugers are top shelf. For function and accuracy.

Never judge a gun, a homemade pie, a cut of meat, high priced meal by its cost till you shoot it or taste it.. I'm happy to own what I have its not about if it's a class gun or not but could it shoot.

Never judge a person by the way he's dressed. I was at my LGS were I'm not well known. I don't go in there often. After welding for 12 hours I'm really dirty. I looked at a new m1a on the counter. I moved it a inch to see the cost tag. The owner ran over and snatched it off the counter away from me. In my mind I wanted to say ill take 30 of them, cash. But it's just not worth it. I'm a simple man with simple needs, colt, Rugers, s&w, savage, marlin, Henry, Swedish mauser, German mauser, Remington, winchester, Allan & Hopkins, Stevens, example all fill my needs. No matter how much a gun costs it's a hoot to shoot.

After the prostate cancer money means nothing. Material things mean nothing. Family means everything. Family makes us rich. Enjoy everyday with your family. Hug your wife, your kids, your grandchildren, your brothers and sisters. Relatives hug them all. Godbless

God and the medical technology gave me a second chance a second life every minute isn't going to be wasted. Two words shooting and fishing.

Buy what you like. Don't disrespect a guy if he owns something different. Remember your first 22? First sks? There a hoot to shoot.
Remember the retired army dragnet who showed up at a iron chicken shoot with a 1911? While the Magnum guys with there long barrels were snickering the old sarge was knocking them steel chickens down at over 200yds. Never judge the quality nor accuracy.

 

[Tom_R]

Kimber still makes excellent 1911s.

They get a unjustified bad rap for a few reasons:

1) People buy them, run home and install new springs, shock buffers, etc, to "upgrade" them, and then wonder why they won't run. That's particularly the case with the commander and officer framed models where the slide over run is already limited. With those models in particular swapping springs and adding aftermarket gizmos seriously screws with he engineering.

2) Kimbers have fairly tight tolerances and you won't see the great reliability they are capable of producing, until you've put a couple hundred rounds through them. The average internet expert is already bashing it on his favorite forum before that happens.

3) Many 1911 owners schooled on series 70 and 80 Colts disassemble and re-assemble Kimber 1911s incorrectly. The Schwartz safety system is well designed and very durable, but it can be damaged by shooters who remove and put the slide back on the pistol incorrectly. It's activated by the grip safety, not the trigger, so if you try to remove the slide, or replace the slide with the grip safety depressed, the pin that de-activates the firing pin safety will be elevated into the path of the slide you are trying to remove or install on the frame.

The more intellectually challenged shooters will then try to muscle it on or off with a couple of good firm whacks while tightly gripping the grip (and depressing the grip safety. Eventually, the pin cracks and shears resulting in a failure. Which of course the shooter then blames on the design, on Kimber, or on pretty much anyone or anything other than themselves.

4) A related issue with many 1911s, not just Kimbers is that many 1911 shooters don't understand 1911 magazine feed lips and feed geometry of a 1911 in general. They also don't understand the relationship between feed lip design, bullet point shape and feed geometry.

If you have a Kimber and you don't mess with the springs or the extractor, and you use a Kimber mag, or an after market mag properly matched to the point shape of the bullet, and you'll get great reliability. Fail to understand any of the above and you run the risk of having some feed issues. Just don't blame the pistol.

---

I own a Gold Match II and it's both superbly accurate and extremely reliable.

The same applies to my Kimber Ultra Carry II - it's unbelievably accurate for a short 1911 and mine has bene utterly reliable from about 200 rounds onward. The main thing with the Ultra Carry and Pro Carry pistol is to change the recoup springs on schedule - with stock replacements.

Exactly.

I have a Kimber Stainless II that I have had some external enhancements performed on (Dehorn, Customer Grips, Night Sights, Changed the Main Spring Housing) but all of the internals are STOCK.

I have just about 500 rounds through it now, and even with a Schwartz Style Safety the Trigger is smooth and Crisp as My Colt Series '70 and the gun is more accurate than I am with a STOCK, not even Match Grade Barrel.

While my Stainless II isn't, and doesn't pretend to be a Les Bear or Wilson Combat, it's a darn good 1911 and everyone who has held and shot it has said it is quality.

 

[Tom_R]

Dan Wesson, Specifically their 1911 offerings, belong in Class A, in my opinion.

MANY will argue that they are almost right there with the True Customer Level Guns. They have all forged parts, hand fit, Match Barrels. Never ever heard a bad thing about Dan Wessons. Many People call them "Ed Brown" Lites.

A Dan Wesson Commander is next on my list.

We really live in a great, great time for Quality Firearms. I know you can;t get Pythons, Pinned and Recessed 19s, 27s and 66s, but you can still get top notch revolvers, and if you want a 1911, you legitimately have about a Dozen choices on a top Notch option, as well as several High Quality GI Models.

Sig-Sauer, FN, H&K, S&W and many others make Top-Notch guns that are ideal for defense, and are just a blast to shoot.

This is the best time for a gun owner in my opinion.

 

[gen3guy]

Whatever the criteria, I don't see how Hi-Point can be on the same list as Browning and Kimber. I just don't get that one!

 

[hkcavalier]

Just my $0.02...

"Best" is pretty relative. Once a handgun is as close to 100% reliable as possible, everything else is pretty subjective or tailored to the person in some way.

Hi-Point is a "C". Sure they are fairly reliable but they have other shortcomings. It may be the best of the C crowd but doesn't belong with the Bs.

The best Kimber is better than many of the A list's products. I know they are more of a marketing machine than an actual maker of top notch 1911s these days, but...still pretty good.

Caracal is B at best. The recall and all. Their newer models are nothing special.

If Kel-Tec is a B, so is SCCY. Their pistols actually have some features that Kel-Tecs don't. The acronym choice is a "Z" though.

Many of the manufacturers listed no longer make handguns. While some of their offerings are decent, for a lot of them there are good reasons they're no longer making them.

As stated before you need a "great" category of really top notch makers. Right now it's a "good, okay, and bad" list.

 

[Blind Boy]

Rohrbaugh

Here's my addition, as I haven't seen this company mentioned yet. Made in New York, of all places. I believe it belongs to Class A, as the fit and finish is excellent. This one is a .380 ACP, small and handy. I like it.



Addendum: I just looked for the company on the net and apparently they closed last year. So, this may not qualify. They were/are excellent, I guess the price didn't make them competitive.

 

[BigBill]

Husqvarna m40, nagant
Swiss nagant
Norinco tough as our rail road track there made from 1911, tokarev
Auto ordnance the new us army ww2 clone is the best clone on the market today 1
CZ75, 85, 83, 82
Russian nagant
Russian tokarev?

 

[Valmet]

Interesting indeed!

If Korth is in the 1st class for a "defensive" handgun, how is the 226 SIGs flagship and not the P-210?

Also, I wouldn't put a Remington anything in 1st class these days.

 

[gasaman]

AMT doesn't make the list?
Not even in economy class?

 

[Muss Muggins]

AMT doesn't make the list?
Not even in economy class?

Hence the problem with trying to make this list. No two will be alike, and all will be wrong. My Blue Book of Gun Values has about 73 pages of trademarks listed. At least 60 pages worth of manufacturers haven't even been mentioned.

 

[GtownGeorge]

Hence the problem with trying to make this list. No two will be alike, and all will be wrong. My Blue Book of Gun Values has about 73 pages of trademarks listed. At least 60 pages worth of manufacturers haven't even been mentioned.

Read the OP.... self defense handguns. If you know of a mfg not on the list and you have experience with the handgun ...add it.