First Model DA .44, what caliber?

[BlueOvalBandit]

Let me preface this isn't my firearm, it's a law enforcement pickup and I'm just doing the forensics/ballistics on it and I can't accurately determine if it's .44 Russian or .44-40.

I don't have .44 Russian in my lab, but I do have .44 Special and its a pretty sloppy fit regarding it's base diameter. .44-40 fits, still sloppy compared to modern standards but it's closer. The cylinder throats look like its cut for .44-40. Before I decide to test fire or write it off I figured I'd consult the experts. Especially since I still don't know whether it's called a First Model DA or a First Model New Model Navy No. 3. based on the internet findings.

So the big question, were these originally made in .44-40?

It's a sad piece, s/n is pretty low at 41xx, but its been beat to hell.

 

[Model19man]

44 Russian is identical to 44 Special other than case length so it's not that.

If the cylinder is long enough for 44 WCF then you have the right ammo. Often black powder guns are terribly corroded which might account for the looseness.

 

[Zzylx]

A few of the longer cylinder DAs were in 44 Russ.

 

[Exmilcop]

If your cylinder measures out at 1-9/16", it's in .44-40. If it's nearly 1/4" less, it's either .44 Russian or .44 S&W. Unless I'm mistaken, the .44 Russian has the case stop step in the chambers. I believe the .44 S&W chambers are bored through. Here's a pic of a First Mod. DA in .44 Russian beside a DA Frontier. The difference is obvious.

 

[BlueOvalBandit]

If your cylinder measures out at 1-9/16", it's in .44-40. If it's nearly 1/4" less, it's either .44 Russian or .44 S&W. Unless I'm mistaken, the .44 Russian has the case stop step in the chambers. I believe the .44 S&W chambers are bored through. Here's a pic of a First Mod. DA in .44 Russian beside a DA Frontier. The difference is obvious.

THANK YOU! The dimensions and the photo make it really obvious vs staring at random pictures on the internet with no scale and reading "they're all .44 Russian" one place and "some were 44-40" other places. The cylinder is indeed 1-9/16" long, so 44-40 it is.

I feel marginally better running 2 shots of 44-40 through it. Wish my hand good luck.

 

[murphydog]

If you have access to material that can do a casting of the charge hole(s), that might be better than risking life and limb. Cerrosafe is one brand but there are probably others.

 

[BlueOvalBandit]

If you have access to material that can do a casting of the charge hole(s), that might be better than risking life and limb. Cerrosafe is one brand but there are probably others.

I appreciate the concern, the "wish my hand good luck" was a little tongue in cheek. My main concern was whether 44-40 was a factory option or did bubba strike somewhere in its lifetime and rechamber it due to the increased max pressure (22k vs 14k psi).

Mechanically it's sound and when I say slop with .44-40 I'm talking 0.007" with the Remington ammo I have and that is undersized with a 0.462" base.

Cerrosafe or any of the low temp bismuth casting alloys would be an absolute luxury. Let's put it this way, the local department I work at has a multi-million dollar annual budget, yet it takes an act of god to get me a $15 set of polishing pads for a dremel to do serial restorations. God forbid I ask for a 1lb of cerrosafe at $30

The only reason I haven't just up and quit earlier due to the political and red tape BS here, is I believe in the cause and I'm the last one here. It's unfortunate that certain leadership choices are only hurting the detectives in their investigations and the associated victims.

(apologies for the soapbox rant)

 

[Exmilcop]

I feel marginally better running 2 shots of 44-40 through it. Wish my hand good luck.[/QUOTE]
Was this not originally a black powder load? I don't know if the modern cowboy action loads duplicate the original pressures of the black powder but best to be sure. Just as an FYI, should you encounter the caliber question again, another clue (aside from the cylinder length) is in the chambers. You don't need any measuring tools for this one. On the .44 Russian you'll note the case stop lip. On the .44-40 you'll note a shadow ring just before the case stop lip.

 

[raljr1]

Can't you just slug the barrel from the breech end using a rod to push a slug thru? Or doesn't that not provide the proper read on the markings?

 

[murphydog]

I appreciate the concern, the "wish my hand good luck" was a little tongue in cheek. My main concern was whether 44-40 was a factory option or did bubba strike somewhere in its lifetime and rechamber it due to the increased max pressure (22k vs 14k psi).

Mechanically it's sound and when I say slop with .44-40 I'm talking 0.007" with the Remington ammo I have and that is undersized with a 0.462" base.

Cerrosafe or any of the low temp bismuth casting alloys would be an absolute luxury. Let's put it this way, the local department I work at has a multi-million dollar annual budget, yet it takes an act of god to get me a $15 set of polishing pads for a dremel to do serial restorations. God forbid I ask for a 1lb of cerrosafe at $30

The only reason I haven't just up and quit earlier due to the political and red tape BS here, is I believe in the cause and I'm the last one here. It's unfortunate that certain leadership choices are only hurting the detectives in their investigations and the associated victims.

(apologies for the soapbox rant)

I have a pretty good idea of what goes on at your work. One of my wife's friend's husband is a crime scene photographer for an agency in your county (you may even know him) and has told of the budget cutbacks and other workplace woes.

 

[glowe]

A few of the longer cylinder DAs were in 44 Russ.

Not before roughly 15,000 serial number.

 

[glowe]

I feel marginally better running 2 shots of 44-40 through it. Wish my hand good luck.
Was this not originally a black powder load? I don't know if the modern cowboy action loads duplicate the original pressures of the black powder but best to be sure. Just as an FYI, should you encounter the caliber question again, another clue (aside from the cylinder length) is in the chambers. You don't need any measuring tools for this one. On the .44 Russian you'll note the case stop lip. On the .44-40 you'll note a shadow ring just before the case stop lip.

Cowboy revolver loads are fine for the 44-40, but be aware that some commercial loadings are meant for rifles. The way the caliber is listed shows that it was originally a black powder load using 40 grains or powder. Calibers like 32-20, 45-70, etc. all indicate the original cartridge was black powder.

Problem with looking for 2 steps in the cylinder is dependent on the condition of the chambers. I have owned several 44 DAs over the years and some with rough cylinders do not show the case shoulder step. Also, worn chambers often do not show the step downs. Easy way to tell is to use a micrometer on the chambers. The holes in the rear of the cylinder will measure over .471" and 44 Russian will measure around .455". There were only 15,340 44 DA Frontiers made, and there were no long cylinder 44 DAs made before about s/n 15,000 in the 44 Russian caliber line. Bottom line is that if you have a long cylinder 44 DA before 15,000 it will almost certainly be a 44-40.

 

[merl67]

Ok curiosity has gotten the better of me. What is the reason for doing a forensic/ballistics test on such a antique as this? If you can divulge such information on a public forum...

 

[BMur]

Smith & Wesson?

It's difficult to evaluate this piece without a photo. Is it possible to post a photo? There were actually some very well-made copies of Smith & Wesson double actions. That might be the reason for the "slop" in the cylinder. I've had a few bulldogs that chambered the 44 Winchester also that looked a lot like a Smith and Wesson. We are assuming a lot here.

Oh, and if it is a copy? "slop" was common.

Photos of 3 excellent examples of European copies.


Murph

 

[Model19man]

I suggest that you read this first- the pressure part is important when selecting ammo for this ancient but useful cartridge.

Chasing the 44-40 - Powder Transitions

THANK YOU! The dimensions and the photo make it really obvious vs staring at random pictures on the internet with no scale and reading "they're all .44 Russian" one place and "some were 44-40" other places. The cylinder is indeed 1-9/16" long, so 44-40 it is.

I feel marginally better running 2 shots of 44-40 through it. Wish my hand good luck.

 

[BlueOvalBandit]

Ok curiosity has gotten the better of me. What is the reason for doing a forensic/ballistics test on such a antique as this? If you can divulge such information on a public forum...

In this case, simply to determine if it was ever used in a crime. It will get uploaded into an ATF database and references against other evidence in the network. Sadly this gun will probably end up as rebar but I'm going to apply to have it retained in a reference library so we don't melt it. I mean cosmetically its still decent looking considering it's over a century old. Mechanically it locks up tight and timing is dead on.

It's difficult to evaluate this piece without a photo. Is it possible to post a photo? There were actually some very well-made copies of Smith & Wesson double actions. That might be the reason for the "slop" in the cylinder. I've had a few bulldogs that chambered the 44 Winchester also that looked a lot like a Smith and Wesson. We are assuming a lot here.

Oh, and if it is a copy? "slop" was common.

Photos of 3 excellent examples of European copies.


Murph

Added some photos of its "good" side. It measure's in spec to what it should be for .44-40, just modern ammo tends to be undersized so it works in everything.

These really smack the @$#$ out of the primer.

still have 10 fingers, 2 eyes, and 1/2 a brain

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[Model19man]

Links to photos do not work.

 

[glowe]

I suggest that you read this first- the pressure part is important when selecting ammo for this ancient but useful cartridge.

Chasing the 44-40 - Powder Transitions

Sorry, but I do not see much value in this study. Lots of detail, but shooters and reloaders need to know only very specific information in order to purchase or load safe cartridges for use in a rifle or pistol. Interesting enough is the fact that back in the days of the 44 DA, there was only one loading for both rifle and revolvers. The value of owning the same caliber 1873 rifle and a handgun was that you only needed one caliber of ammo for both guns. They shot 1100 fps out of a rifle and 750 out of a handgun. The other, and most popular revolver caliber of the Nineteenth Century was the 45 Colt, but there were no rifles available in this caliber so 44-40 was the best game in town. Colt built lots of 44-40 Single Action revolvers.

The ballistics of the original black powder loads are well known for the 44-40 and if reloading, the goal is to load at or below that velocity of CUP. Commercial loadings from companies like Remington and Winchester load today to be comparable to the original 44-40 BP. Back in the day, many Marlin owners wanted much more powerful ammo since their rifles could handle high pressure loads, so smokeless loads were developed for Marlin leverguns. Care still has to be taken when selecting commercial ammunition today, because there are high pressure rifle loads currently available by custom manufacturers.

Reloading data for modern smokeless powder is readily available for almost all appropriate powders for 44-40 have published data that will show velocities and pressures. There are also studies that prove one can correlate CUP to PSI so comparisons can be made. It is known that CUP is lower than PSI across the board and when dealing with pressures below 20,000 psi, CUP readings are less than 10% lower. If a BP load was documented at 15,000 CUP, it is comparable to only a slightly higher PSI reading to give the same ballistics.

 

[Kinman]

I find current "Cowboy" loads containing smokeless to be stiffer than black powder loads that are close to original charges per caliber 44-40 (40 gr. of black powder) By stiffer I mean that the recoil is sharper and more abrupt than the buck and roar of black powder. After shooting smokeless loads through my black powder era firearms I have gone to shooting only black powder and will continue until the black powder is all gone which includes the fact that I can always make my own. I had one original '86 Winchester in 45-70 that I developed a hunting load using smokeless and Hornady 350?gr soft tip bullets that shot like a house a fire and didn't beat the **** out of me. Other than that everything I own built during that black powder era uses black powder only, I have friends that use smokeless to good effect but somethings I don't compromise on.

 

[BMur]

Reloading in the 19th Century

And on that note,

Let's not forget the Black Powder reloaders of the 19th Century! If you collect antique reloading tools? By far, the most common tool is the tool used to reload the 44 WCF. I mean they are extremely common. Very easy to find, even today. Winchester and Ideal reloading tools were the most common of that Era and the most common caliber found on the collectable market today is the 44WCF. No question.

So, that basically means that folks were using those tools to reload their rifle/ pistol combo with black powder. Their choice was actually pretty large from a standpoint of "powder".

By the early 1890's semi-smokeless was pretty common. Then you have your "chefs" who like to make up their own recipe mixing powders. (Crazy but true). Even Black powder offered F, FF, FFF, FFFF and various manufacturers always varied in powder strength. Just like today.


Murph