First powder coating.

[Mikeinkaty]

Got 300 bullets powder coated this morning. Went pretty good. I think I probably averaged 30 minutes per each 100 bullet batch. Goes pretty fast. I had some rejects mainly in the 1st & 2nd batch. I put those in the melt pot. Interestingly the polymer coating floated on the surface and never melted. Now I gotta go shoot them.

 

[muddocktor]

Mike,

Pics or it didn't happen!

Seriously, what did you coat with, Hi Tek or powder coat? And pics would be nice to see how they came out too.

 

[Mikeinkaty]

Mike,

Pics or it didn't happen!

Seriously, what did you coat with, Hi Tek or powder coat? And pics would be nice to see how they came out too.

I used Eastwood powder company, ford light blue. Don't know how to post pics here.

 

[Mikeinkaty]

 

[BC38]

Cool! So how are you applying the powder? Spray? Shake-n-bake? Piglet? Something else?

 

[Mikeinkaty]

I heat 100 bullets (rinsed with acetone) with a 1500 watt heat gun in a metal cake pan. I let them cool down until I can hold a handful for 5 seconds. Then I dump them in a tuppaware container, add 2 heaping tablespoons of powder, and shake for 2 or 3 minutes. Then I dump them in a wire screen basket setting on cardboard or wax paper all setting in a big cookie pan. Shake off the excess powder. Separate the bullets using a kitchen table knife. Keep as many from touching as you can. Put in electric counter top oven preset to 400°F for 20 minutes. Take them out and dump onto the cookie pan. Pound on the bottom of the screen container with a big spoon to get them unstuck if necessary. Any bullets stuck together just snap them apart with your hands. If they are permantely stuck then there was to much powder on the bullets. Probably damage the bullet trying to get those off the screen. Any that don't turn out good just remelt them.

When the timer dings you have to take them out immediately and dump them on the cookie pan.
Make the screen container out of 1/4" mesh wire - Home Depot

This is The recipe of Elvis Ammo on YouTube.

 

[Fishslayer]

Those are the same color as some old nylon clad bullets I've seen.

 

[muddocktor]

Those look good, Mike. After coating, do you need to run them through a sizer die? If so, what brand sizer are you using? You guys got me interested in coating, but not so much casting. I was thinking that I could buy some sized but unlubed bullets from someone like MBC then coat them myself like you are doing and see how they perform. But I don't want to go through all the expense of getting a dedicated sizing machine. I see that Lee makes sizing dies that screw into a regular single stage reloading press and I would think that would be the way to go while being a cheapskate for equipment. That is, if their sizing dies are worth a damn.

 

[Mikeinkaty]

I just use the Lee sizeing die after the bullets are coated. I put a little dab of Alox on about every 20th bullet just to ease using the die. That's after their already coated. Lanolin and alcohol would work too.

Also, I just finished coating 1000 bullets and it took a tad under 4 ounces of the Eastwood powder. You should get a little over 4000 coated bullets from a pound of powder. For my 357-158 bullets, that's about 0.375¢ per bullet.

 

[BC38]

Also, I just finished coating 1000 bullets and it took a tad under 4 ounces of the Eastwood powder. You should get a little over 4000 coated bullets from a pound of powder. For my 357-158 bullets, that's about 0.375¢ per bullet.

OK, now it makes sense. You said 37/100 of a cent, and I misread that as 3.75 cents.....

 

[Mikeinkaty]

I quit doing the acetone rinse step. Not needed. Also started using just 1 teaspoon of powder. Coated well but the coats are thinner. So, which is desired? Thick or thin? Both sized well.

 

[BC38]

I quit doing the acetone rinse step. Not needed. Also started using just 1 teaspoon of powder. Coated well but the coats are thinner. So, which is desired? Thick or thin? Both sized well.

As long as it's even, I prefer a thin coat - unless the bullets are undersized, then a thick coat is better.

I don't use acetone either - unless I am stripping lube off the bullets first. I had a couple of hundred 200gr 44 RNFPs that were a little undersized (.427-.428) that had some really old crusty lube on them. I soaked them overnight in gasoline to remove the old lube, then after drying them off overnight, I rinsed them in acetone to remove the oily gasoline residue.

I'm probably going to end up double-coating them to bump their diameter up a couple of thousandths.

 

[29aholic]

So, let me get this straight. You size after you coat? Does that take coating off? Is it necessary to coat the base? The PC is the only lube?

 

[BC38]

So, let me get this straight. You size after you coat?

Yes.

Does that take coating off?

No. Not if it is applied correctly and fully cured. 375-400 degrees for 15-20 minutes to fully cure the powder I'm using. The test for full cure and adhesion is to smash one with a hammer. If the coating doesn't flake off the smashed bullet it is adhering and cured correctly

Is it necessary to coat the base?

No. Only the bearing surfaces need to be coated. But the shake-n-bake method coats the bases and ogave too.

The PC is the only lube?

Yes. The powder coating completely eliminates the need for any other lube. Some people use just the tiniest bit of lube to make them go through the sizer more easily, but unless the coated bullets are significantly oversized, that isn't even usually necessary.

 

[29aholic]

Ok,
What size are you at as cast? And, what are you sizing to?
By Lee do you mean the cookie cutter sizer or something else?


Would you mind posting a pic of the bullets after they are PC'ed and sized?


Thanks

 

[BC38]

Ok,
What size are you at as cast? And, what are you sizing to?
By Lee do you mean the cookie cutter sizer or something else?


Would you mind posting a pic of the bullets after they are PC'ed and sized?


Thanks

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not casting my own, I just bought 500 unlubed 38/357 cal really cheap at a local gunshow. They were all cast at .357-.358. After coating they are 1-2 thousandths larger than that. Most are measuring .359-.360

I'm using a borrowed Lee sizer and sizing them back to .358 for my 38/357 cal.

I don't have any sized ones to post pictures of but I will in a few days - I just finished coating several batches.

The 44's I mentioned earlier were already sized to .427-.428 so after double-coating them to bring them up to .429-.430 I probably won't resize them at all - they should be good to go.

 

[Mikeinkaty]

Here is my crop as of today. I size after coating. Sizing does not strip any coating. Nor does seating. You can re-melt the coated bullets if you want. The coating will not melt. If your bullets are cast at .358" and you use a thin powder coat I don't think sizing would be necessary. Coating eliminates the need for lubeing. I shot over 1000 with no leading.

 

[Mikeinkaty]

With the thinner coat I think you could do powder coating for about $1.00 per 1000 bullets. If you can scrounge your lead then that's pretty darn cheap and good shooting bullets. Not counting the brass that's getting the cost down to about 5 or 6 cents per round, say using 4 grains of Trail Boss as an example. That's a fun load, by the way. Good for plinking an paper. And, a good load for training the grandkids to shoot a bigger pistol.

 

[Forrest r]

Ya, primers are the big $$$. When you find them for $20/$25 a 1000, buy all you can. Back when cabella's had the s&b primers for $20/1000 & free shipping I ordered 20,000 sp primers, 16# of clays, 4# of american select & 5# of trailboss. I use anywhere from 3gr to 6gr of powder depending on the caliber (38spl/357/9mm/44spl/44mag/45acp) and the plinking bullet.

Free lead & free range brass $.02 to $.03 for primers & $.01 to $.02 for powder & $.001 for powder coated bullets. At the end of the day I'm shooting 9mm's & 38spl's for 3.5 to 4 cents apiece. 44spl's & 45acps for around 5 cents apiece & plinking 357's/44mag's for around 6 cents apiece.

Thin coats are all I use to pc bullets along with sizing them after I pc them. I also use soft rang scrap (8 to 10bhn) for all my pistol bullets & load them anywhere from 9,000psi to 35,000psi with no problems. The soft lead makes for an extremely accurate bullet. The heating process that cooks the pc coating actually anneals the lead alloy making it softer. The soft lead cores easily expand to fit/seal the chambers/cylinders/bores and the pc coats makes an excellent lube/barrier between the lead core & bbl.

I shoot a lot of 38spl's, just an all around excellent plinking round for me that very cheap & easy to reload for. The shake & bake method of coating bullets with pc that myself and others use coats the bottom of the bullets. This makes for cleaner ammo and no lead vapor from exposed lead bullet bases. I'm not concerned with how clean a load shoots & I don't mind cleaning firearms. Heck I shot nothing but the NRA 50/50 lube for decades. It just surprised me that a side bonus from shooting pc'd bullets is how clean the firearm stays during a range session. Less junk in the bbl and chambers ='s accuracy.
A 357 after a 200 round range session with 38spl plinking loads.


6-shot groups @ 50ft of that 38spl plinking load.


Recovered bullets from the berm, these were shot with several different calibers using plinking loads to full house magnum loads.

 

[Forrest r]

When I 1st started pc'ing bullets I figured I'd test the pc in a high powered rifle. If the coating could stand up to 50,000+psi, it would work with any of the pistol calibers I reload for. These were recovers from the 100yd line berm, that 2300fps bullet is a 50,000+psi load for the 308w. It's a 230gr lee blackout bullet. On a side note, I was also testing different alloys for hunting bullets. Note that the slower bullets shattered. I kept changing alloys as I tested and the end result is the 2300fps/50,000psi bullet that the nose bent on rather than breaking/shattering.


The pc coating and what the pc process does to alloy opens up a whole new world for caster/reloads. The same alloy that is used to make excellent soft nosed bullets can also be used to make bullets that match the the bbl's ball throat/throat/leade. A lyman 311413 seated so it engraves the riflings of a custom 308bbl. Next to it is the same bullet that was swaged in a bump die, note the riflings now have the same depth the length of the bullet/leade.


After making the bump die I tested it on a 212gr paper patch 308 bullet (left) and the lee 230gr black out bullet that has a 8r nose and a boat tail (right). A crude drawing of what I was tring to bump those bullets into.


A close-up of the lee 230gr bullet that was bumped for fit the bbl's ball throat/throat/leade. The arrow points to where the ball throat ends anf the actual throat/leade of the bbl begins. The bullet tapers from .308 to .302 from that point/arrow.


Why all the rifle bullet pics??? It shows that these soft alloyed coated bullets can easily be manipulated to extreme shapes and still preform/function.

Or you can simply cast up some bullets and pc them & load them with some old pistol powder you have laying around and enjoy plinking with a 308. Playing around @ the 50yds line doing 10-shot groups with pc'd bullets cast from free range lead. Don't need any gas checks, no leading & the bbl's stay clean.


Never could get this bullet to do very well when pushed over 1400fps. Didn't matter if I used traditional lube or pc.


As you can see pc'd bullets can take a lot of abuse along with being a extremely cheap plinker for the high powers. Just started doing some testing for the 223rem with coated bullets. Right now I'm testing 70gr to 90gr bullets. A pic of some 70gr pc'd bullets made from cast cores and home made swaging dies.


I think I'm going to change the nose on that bullet to 4r/5r. I want a little more grab on the body of the bullet along with a small flat nose. Should make 1 heck of a 90gr/100gr plinker for the 1 in 7.

 

[Forrest r]

Well covered revolver & rifles, might as well do a semi-auto pistol. Pc'd bullets are the cat's meow in the 9mm's!!! Cheap, easy to load, excellent performance. Did I mention cheap? They are also extremely clean shooting.

My favorite bullet for the 9mm, it's a 125gr hp. The misses uses it in her ccw.


That soft lead bullet do extremely well in that short bbl'd ccw. But it also does equally well in my bullseye/plinking 1911.


That 1911/bpc'd bullet combo pictured above doing 10-shot groups @ the 50ft line.


Highly accurate, soft shooting, cheap (4 cents a pull of the trigger) makes for some quality range time. That heavy 1911 and those target/plinking loads are easy on the shooter and it's nothing to put some lead down range for extended periods of time. Can't remember if it was a 700 round range session or 500 round range session? Let's go with what that 1911 looked like after a 500 round range session with that plinking load pictured above.


Nise star on the muzzle of that 1911 bbl.


A look in the bbl


No brushes, no mops, just 1 wet patch (hoppe's #9) and 1 dry patch and a cleaning rod to clean that 1911's bbl after a 500 round range session.


The chamber end of the ramped bbl on that 1911. Not the highly polished long throat in that bbl.


Cheap, easy to do, highly accurate clean shooting bullets.

 

[BC38]

Forest r, you "R" the man for powder coating info

 

[ParadiseRoad]

 

[BC38]

....The 44's I mentioned earlier were already sized to .427-.428 so after double-coating them to bring them up to .429-.430 I probably won't resize them at all - they should be good to go.

Seems kinda' weird to quote myself, but I wanted to give an update on this part of the experiment...

Looks like I won't be double coating those 44's after all. Apparently they are pure or nearly pure lead. I did about 300 of them and nearly 100 of them at least started to melt and deform during the baking process. They started to melt at the base first and slumped over sideways.

I was really surprised because I thought I had read that the melting temp for lead is above 400 degrees F. After having so many of them ruined I looked it up and discovered that the actual melting temp of pure lead is only 327.5 degrees F. Which explains why so many of them started to melt in an over at 380-390 degrees! I didn't loose a single one of my 148gr LWCs so obviously they are a harder alloy with a higher melting temp.

The other 200 of the 44 cal seem to have turned out fine, but I'm not going to risk loosing any more of them by doing a second coat. I'll just shoot them as they are with one coat.

Kinda sucks, but on the brighter side, I now have almost 3 punds of lead to give to my buddy who is casting his own.

 

[Mikeinkaty]

DC38 - pure lead melts at 622°F or 328°C. 400°F will not melt lead.

 

[BC38]

DC38 - pure lead melts at 622°F or 328°C. 400°F will not melt lead.

I just looked it up again and you are RIGHT, the melting point is 327.5 degrees Celsius, NOT 327.5 degrees Fahrenheit.

I don't get it. How/why did some of these bullets melt then? I have a digital temp probe in the oven, and it read 385 degrees F. I also don't understand why only the 200gr 44 cal bullets had the problem, but none of the 148gr 38 cal bullets melted. The temp setting was the same, and I would expect the smaller bullets to melt first due to having more surface area per unit of mass.

The temp dial on the oven only goes to 500 F. So how the heck did the metal tray get hot enough to melt the lead bullets?

EDIT: I think I have it figured out. The harder alloy of the 38 cal bullets alloy is a contributing factor. Just a few percent of tin and antimony in the mix can raise the melting point by 40 or 50 degrees. The only bullets that melted were those in the middle of the tray, farthest from the walls of the oven, making it the hottest spot in the oven. They melted from the bottom up because the tray was hotter than the rest of the interior of the oven due to its proximity to the bottom heating elements.

I think I'll need to relocate my temp probe and use a tray with a double layer - like the cookie sheets my wife uses - with an air gap between the layers to even out the temp across the surface of the tray.

 

[Forrest r]

I've done the same thing.

There's a huge difference between what the thermometer in the oven says and the extremely hot air that the oven produces to keep the oven up to temp/hot.

The toaster oven that I use has a "TURBO" setting. It was like "I wonder what that button do???"

It melted the bullets!!!

Turned out you're supposed to use that setting if you wanted to cook something quicker. Turning the "turbo" setting on made the fan that circulated the hot air to the oven shift to fast/high.

 

[Troystat]

Very interesting thread, as to the toaster oven I am shocked that the makers did not have info about curing coated bullets in the instruction manual

 

[BC38]

UPDATE:
I solved the problem. Just wish I had recognized that there WAS a problem before I slagged nearly 100 of my 200gr RNFP slugs

What I was doing was using a piece of 14 gauge stainless steel in place of the wire rack in the toaster oven. It was close enough to the bottom heating elements of the oven that the surface was getting too hot - WAY hotter than the air inside the oven. So, What I did was put the wire rack back in the oven on TOP of the piece of stainless steel plate, then put the coated bullets on top of ANOTHER piece of the same stainless plate sitting on the wire rack. So now the wire rack is separating the two pieces of stainless plate and creating a 1/8" air gap between them. Worked like a charm.

I tested it and after 15-20 minutes the temp probe was showing the air temp in the oven all the way up to 420 degrees F. Even at that temp, a bullet sitting right in the middle didn't melt after nearly 30 minutes in the oven - the last 10-15 minutes at a temp of 420.

So I went ahead and did a second coat on all of the 44 cal bullets and I didn't melt a single one. The second coat brought them up to .430-.431, - right where I wanted them. So they're all good now, and I don't have to worry about accidentally melting any more bullets....

 

[Mikeinkaty]

My oven has a baffle above the bottom element and below the top element.