Fixed Sight Regulation

[Dr.J]

I've recently obtained my CCW endorsement and am thinking about buying a S&W model 640. My current handguns have either adjustable or red dot sights on them. My concern is that I might purchase a fixed sight gun that does not shoot to my point of aim (POA). What range does S&W sight the J frames in at? How close to the point of aim, i.e., up and down, left and right are they? Your comments and experience is appreciated. Thanks, Dr.J

 

[M29since14]

I don't know if you will ever get a straight answer on this. It is probably not something that can be objectively gaged, unless the gun is mounted in a machine rest for test-firing, which would be pointless because the guns are not used in a machine rest.

Anyway, some time ago I had a Model 637 that was giving me grief and S&W demurred about fixing it. I finally got a serviceman on the phone who would talk to me like I was something other than a child and I explained to him my gun was shooting 5-6 inches left at 35-feet. He agreed to have a look at the gun if I returned it (those days, at my expense). In the course of the conversation he told me that S&W expected the guns to shoot within 2-inches of point of aim at 10-yards. Whether that was the truth or whether he was just being polite, I'll never know.

I sent the gun and target off for repairs and got a gun back that still shot a bit left for me, but close enough that I considered it good enough.

Draw your own conclusions.

 

[NYlakesider]

Some fixed sight guns can be adjusted somewhat, but the results can also make it worse than it is.

Careful (very careful) use of a file can sometimes move the point of impact, but it’s nothing to learn by doing on a good gun. Same for some persuasion with a hammer and solid piece of brass rod on a front sight on a well secured gun in a padded vise. A little goes a long way and can be irreparable at that point.

First off get your new gun and perhaps it will surprise you. If not trying different ammo, both brands and weights and sees what that does. If you hand load you can even experiment more.

I have a few fixed sight guns and especially for a J frame which is only going to be used at bad breath distances it should shoot fine for you!

 

[ISCS Yoda]

I have never had a S&W revolver that was exceedingly far off but usually the adjustable sight guns are so simple to adjust for windage that any left/right problems vanish. A fixed sign gun is different.

If you have serious windage problems with a S&W revolver get someone to watch you shoot to ensure that it's not you with a flinch or a trigger jerk or something like that. If you have elevation issues you have two options. Adjust the way you sink or don't sink that front sight into the rear sight "trough" or, if it shoots low, you can file the front sight - but you better know what you're doing! If it shoots high just learn to raise the front sight out of the trough some.

I think I said that correctly but I'm dyslexic some so if I got it backwards feel free to correct me.

***GRJ***

***GRJ***

 

[Alk8944]

Some fixed sight guns can be adjusted somewhat, but the results can also make it worse than it is.

Careful (very careful) use of a file can sometimes move the point of impact, but it’s nothing to learn by doing on a good gun. Same for some persuasion with a hammer and solid piece of brass rod on a front sight on a well secured gun in a padded vise. A little goes a long way and can be irreparable at that point.

NYlakesider,

I realize you mean well, but you simply do not know what you are talking about. The only thing to be accomplished by filing the sights on a revolver is to destroy the appearance of the gun. Even if you were to file away 1/2 the thickness of the front sight, 1/16". Because when properly sighting the front sight is centered in the rear notch you have only moved the center of the front sight 1/2 the amount removed, or 1/32", .031". At 10 yards with a snubby this moves the point of impact only about 3 1/2", hardly worth the trouble. Have you ever seen a gun either was done to? There is a reason for this.

The factory "regulates" fixed sight revolvers by bending the frame, really! While this is a simple procedure, it must be left to someone who understands how to do it properly as the gun can be severely damaged this way too. As far as I know this is only done with steel frame guns as the relatively brittle Aluminum alloy is likely to break rather than bend.

FWIW, every S&W fixed sight revolver I have owned in the last 50+ years, several hundred(!), has shot close enough to center that regulation was not needed, so far. Apparently the factory did a good job! This includes 1/7/8" to 6 1/2" guns of all periods of manufacture. DrJ, you are worrying about a problem which will not affect whatever gun you buy.

 

[OKFC05]

There are a few guns that the barrel is overclocked (turned) or bent, but there are a lot more handguns that are bad in some hands and not in others. In 44 years of shooting S&Ws I have sent exactly ONE back to correct an overclocked barrel.

I have found most fixed sight S&Ws to shoot pretty well with 158gr lead bullets at around 15 yds or so. Too light a bullet, they shoot low; too heavy, high, due to dwell time in barrel.
I have had several students who shot low and left, right handed, but then low and right shooting left handed. Obviously not the gun.
Some immediately want to start cranking on the adjustable sights on my loaner gun until I shoot a group for them.

If you want to shoot the hair on the wart on the frog on the log, get an adjustable sight gun.

 

[sac-gunslinger]

Too light a bullet, they shoot low;

I am facing that problem with my 642. I am using a 125 grain slug and it is about six inches low at 10 yards. Filing does not work too well for lowering point of aim (don't ask me how I know) and I have never found a good way to raide a sight. I guess it will just be "Kentucky windage" for longer shots.

 

[jbull380]

It's not an issue I would worry about. Your trying to compare a close quarters combat pistol to something you have been target shooting with. As long as you can put your rounds center mass at the range you are comfortable engaging a threat at then you're fine. You can try different bullet weights and velocities to affect POI as well.

 

[Dr.J]

Thanks to everyone for your responses.

 

[NYlakesider]

NYlakesider,

I realize you mean well, but you simply do not know what you are talking about. The only thing to be accomplished by filing the sights on a revolver is to destroy the appearance of the gun. Even if you were to file away 1/2 the thickness of the front sight, 1/16". Because when properly sighting the front sight is centered in the rear notch you have only moved the center of the front sight 1/2 the amount removed, or 1/32", .031". At 10 yards with a snubby this moves the point of impact only about 3 1/2", hardly worth the trouble. Have you ever seen a gun either was done to? There is a reason for this.

The factory "regulates" fixed sight revolvers by bending the frame, really! While this is a simple procedure, it must be left to someone who understands how to do it properly as the gun can be severely damaged this way too. As far as I know this is only done with steel frame guns as the relatively brittle Aluminum alloy is likely to break rather than bend.

FWIW, every S&W fixed sight revolver I have owned in the last 50+ years, several hundred(!), has shot close enough to center that regulation was not needed, so far. Apparently the factory did a good job! This includes 1/7/8" to 6 1/2" guns of all periods of manufacture. DrJ, you are worrying about a problem which will not affect whatever gun you buy.

Well I did say it was not a god idea. A good friend that was an armorer for a police dept years back has done some of those things in the past. Bending a front sight a very small amount seemed to help (Shot 2 of those guns) and he told me about filling but to be honest I never shot a filed gun that he altered like that.

I never found any of my fixed sighted guns off that much that I though they needed remedial action.

 

[CO_Kid]

I am facing that problem with my 642. I am using a 125 grain slug and it is about six inches low at 10 yards. Filing does not work too well for lowering point of aim (don't ask me how I know) and I have never found a good way to raide a sight. I guess it will just be "Kentucky windage" for longer shots.

Try a heavier round. Should bring the POI up a bit.

 

[M29since14]

The factory "regulates" fixed sight revolvers by bending the frame, really!...

They re-clocked the barrel on my 637, so I assume you are correct in saying that they probably don't try to "bend" aluminum frames.

For the most part, I agree with you on the worrying over much about POA/POI differences with fixed-sight J-frames. The 637 is the only one I have ever seen off too far to use as-is. On the other hand, I have seen several K-frame .38s I considered unacceptable - but maybe I am just too picky.

 

[Kestrel]

A few more data points, my Airlite .38 Spl is -1" @ 10 yds, ~7-8" @ 25 yds with 130 gr FMJ's. I'm not losing sleep over it.

I know about the 'shoot heavier bullets' advice, but IIRC S&W cautioned against lead 158's due to the possibility of crimp jump for that line.

One of my M64's is dead-on @ 10 yds and the other shoots 1" to the right (consistent between a few different loads).

The above is nothing much to complain about, just thought it might be of some interest.

 

[CO_Kid]

A few more data points, my Airlite .38 Spl is -1" @ 10 yds, ~7-8" @ 25 yds with 130 gr FMJ's. I'm not losing sleep over it.

I know about the 'shoot heavier bullets' advice, but IIRC S&W cautioned against lead 158's due to the possibility of crimp jump for that line.

One of my M64's is dead-on @ 10 yds and the other shoots 1" to the right (consistent between a few different loads).

The above is nothing much to complain about, just thought it might be of some interest.

You are absolutely right about some of the J frames and heavier rounds. Usually its the ultra-light guns like the titanium or scandium guns. The newer ones have warnings on them not to shoot anything heavier than 125gr.