Fixing "force-off" on an antique S&W

[Exmilcop]

A friend has an antique .44 Russian 1st. Mod. DA and when it's in single action with the hammer back, a very light push on the hammer, without touching the trigger, will cause the hammer to fall. I'm told this is called force off. I'm assuming it's a worn sear (if I'm wrong, let me know). I have no idea if it's a tough or easy fix, if there's anyone around who knows how to repair it, or if it's within the skill set of a someone handy with tools. Any information would be most appreciated.

 

[Protocall_Design]

We normally call it "push off" here. That is due to the edge on the trigger not engaging the notch on the hammer well enough. That can be due to not being made right at the factory, normal wear, damage from a blow to the hammer while it's cocked, kitchen table gunsmithing, etc.

If it hasn't been damaged or altered, it's usually a fairly easy fix to stone the edge on the trigger to work properly. You have to keep the working edge exactly 90 degrees to the sides of the trigger. This is best done by using a sear stoning jig. My way is to use a 1/2" x 1/2" x 6" square stone lying on a flat piece of steel. Then drag the edge of the trigger along the stone, while keeping the side flat on the steel plate. The top surface of the trigger should be about 80 degrees to the side of the stone. Take a few strokes, examine the corner of the trigger that engages the hammer, a few more swipes, etc.. When you get a clean, sharp edge, you're there. The stone and the steel stay stationary. Only the trigger moves.

 

[Hondo44]

Protoacall's method is almost fool proof.

It's also possible that the hammer notch could be the culprit.

If you've never done this before, best left to a gunsmith.

 

[Exmilcop]

Protoacall's method is almost fool proof.

It's also possible that the hammer notch could be the culprit.

If you've never done this before, best left to a gunsmith.

Thank you all. I've never done a repair on an old S&W, but finding a smith up here who'd knowledgeable on these is difficult. It's not like you folks south of the border when it comes to finding a qualified gunsmith. I'm pretty handy with tools and the job doesn't sound overly complex but I'd actually have to see it done before I'd know if it is or is not within my skill set.

 

[armorer951]

You haven't mentioned whether or not you or the owner have actually measured the SA pull with a pull gauge. This would be critical in determining if repair is actually required. If the hammer notch is in tact and undamaged, sharpening the bevel on the trigger is the remedy for the malfunction, and will usually restore proper function, if the springs and other related parts are still serviceable.

The most difficult part of this particular repair is the disassembly and re-assembly of this "antique" revolver. Since parts for this model have been out of production for over a century, inadvertent damage to, or loss of an unrelated internal part during the "repair" procedure may in fact make the problem worse.

Finding a gunsmith who will agree to work on the revolver may be impossible for this reason.

 

[chief38]

As Protocoll Design posted above, the repair is relatively straight forward and the stone needed is inexpensive to properly do this repair. This is also a common issue and this could be the perfect time to learn how to do this. Disassembly of a S&W revolver is pretty straight forward, the repair isn't difficult - at least for someone with some mechanical ability, willing to watch some actual repair videos on Midway's and Brownells websites, and willing to get a copy of Kunhausen's shop manual. At least the effort will pay off for future and similar repairs on other revolvers.

Good Gunsmiths are going the way of honest politicians and shipping firearms is difficult and expensive now days. There couldn't be a better time to learn how to repair your own stuff - and this issue would be a good way to start.

While this repair is not for the guys with 2 left thumbs, it should be achievable by many who are willing to learn, have patience and the desire to become self sufficient. Sending out guns for repair just got a whole lot more expensive and harder to do. This could be a perfect opportunity.

 

[6string]

Disassembly and assembly information is helpful for any firearms repair.
The attached info is not exactly right for your .44 DA, but it'll get you in the ballpark.

 

[Exmilcop]

I'm pretty tool handy and I have an extensive collection of stones, natural and furnace abrasives, coarse and fine, and large and small as well as very fine Swiss and machinst's files. If I knew exactly what had to be done to what area of the trigger and/or hammer I would consider taking a crack at it. I'm used to fine and delicate work, having been on the tools most of my adult life. As you all have so rightly pointed out, screwing up an antique pistol creates more problems than can be easily rectified, given the issue of trying to find parts.

 

[6string]

It's worth fixing, for sure!
Some folks advise against any sort of use for antique firearms. But, for a little perspective, consider the activities of the Muzzle Loaders Associations International Confederation. Their primary mission is promoting International shooting competitions using both reproduction and original muzzleloading arms. Some of the arms used are hundreds of years old, yet they're getting more use now than when they were new!
Of course, there are issues and challenges in doing so. But, with this in consideration, performing a relatively minor repair on a high quality piece like your S&W DA .44 might feel a bit more approachable.
Sorry to not have any more useful information in regard to your particular gun, but the MLAIC website at least might give you some inspiration.

Time tables for 29th. MLAIC World Championships 2022 | MLAIC

Sounds like you have the skillset and attitude to do the job right.

 

[mmaher94087]

"A friend has an antique .44 Russian 1st. Mod. DA ..." The DA trigger does not touch the single action sear on a double action revolver. The DA trigger pushes up on the front of a 'rear sear' which pivots down and away from the single action hammer sear. If the rear sear or the hammer, single action, sear can't be refreshed with a light stoning, then one or the other (or both) sear(s) must be welded and recut or replaced with a good sear. If the sear(s) are stoned beyond a few thousandths, then the geometry of the cylinder and lockup is affected, and the revolver will be out of time in single action.

 

[mmaher94087]

I forgot to add: Gun Parts Corporation (Numrich) currently has a 44 Double Action 'rear sear' listed at $24 +/-. Google GPC and choose revolver parts. Scroll down the listing to 44 Double Action to find the part.