Fluid transfer monolithic bullets

[lrrifleman]

In anticipation of the enactment of national reciprocity, I am looking closely at my self defense ammunition options under New Jersey law. Currently, FMJ, soft points, and lead are my only legal option. To date, the state has not enacted legislation to ban ammunition like Lehigh Defense's Fluid Transfer Monolithic bullets, which appear to have a greater likelihood of immediate incapacitation.

I have a few questions concerning FTM ammunition.

First, how does FTM ammo tend to "shoot to the sights" since it launches a lighter than usual bullet at significantly higher velocities? Does it tend to shoot high, low, or close to on target?

Second, for practice (cost of Lehigh's bullets are expensive) has anyone found a comparable lightweight bullet (or mold) that can be loaded for semi-affordable practice?

Thanks for your help!

 

[Toolguy]

Generally, light bullets at high velocity will shoot lower than heavy bullets at low verlocity. This is all relative to the start and end points of the weight and velocity definitions.

 

[Rule3]

I wouldn't "overthink" it.

What caliber??

Lots off "things" have been shot dead with just lead.
Jacketed soft points would be my choice.

 

[Rpg]

Don’t get ahead of yourself.

Reciprocity isn’t a done deal.

Unlikely to become the law of the land.

Just my opinion, of course.

 

[CATI1835]

Don’t get ahead of yourself.

Reciprocity isn’t a done deal.

Unlikely to become the law of the land.

Just my opinion, of course.

^^^ What he said. VERY unlikely to happen, IMO.

 

[686-380]

You know, I never compared. Next time I go to the range, I'll check it out. I need to rotate my carry ammo anyway.

FWIW, I would choose the Xtreme Defense vs. Xtreme Penetrator. My experiments indicate a better wound channel and less risk of over penetration.

 

[scooter123]

Don’t get ahead of yourself.

Reciprocity isn’t a done deal.

Unlikely to become the law of the land.

Just my opinion, of course.

I agree with this statement 100%. IMO National Reciprocity is a pipe dream that won't ever happen unless it is so laden with requirements and restrictions that only Congresscritters will qualify. BTW, having seen how congresscritters legislate I suspect that another consequence of National Reciprocity will be that State to State Reciprocity will be banned.

As you may suspect I am not at all in favor of National Reciprocity.
Actually also not a fan of Constitutional Carry because the state I live in has requirements that are pretty effective in keeping idiots from legally carrying a concealed weapon. In addition Michigan has reciprocity agreements in place that allow me to carry in 39 states.

 

[lrrifleman]

I really believe that the bottom is going to fall out of pork bellies, no sense in investing in them.

That dag gone new fangled invention called the horseless carriage just isn't going to catch on ... better to buy yourself a matched team of horses to pull your buggy!

I am sorry for having asked a reloading question in the reloading subforum ... had I wanted political insight I would have posted under 2A issues. I merely cited a rationale behind my question about ammo performance and reloading for same. It is great that some people can be treated as free men (or women) in a free state. Unfortunately, some of us don't have that luxury and are treated as subjects in our home state and left as vulnerable sheep outside the walls of our homes while we may be fortunate to have the rights of free men in other states by virtue of non-resident permits. I long for the day that I can relocate to free America, but until that day comes, I am stuck here and can only hope for national reciprocity ... hope is good ... people need something to look forward to ... it is how we progress!

 

[mikld]

At self defense distances the exact point of impact related to the point of aim is irrelevant. If, under stress, and at short distance a bullet hits within 6" of the aiming point, yer doin' good...

 

[fredj338]

At self defense distances the exact point of impact related to the point of aim is irrelevant. If, under stress, and at short distance a bullet hits within 6" of the aiming point, yer doin' good...

That is fine for contact engagement, but if your fight goes to the length of two cars, 50ft, that 6" diff in POI is gonna be a serious problem.
I agree, as much as I would like to see national reciprocity, aint gonna happen.
If I had to go non expanding, it would be a 45acp & large lead flat point, probaly the 200gr Lee RNFP, cast as soft as I can get to run in the gun well, powder coat it, gtg. The only time I would consider handloads & I could justify that BECAUSE of the non expanding requirement of the state & was in. All to reduce over penetration, run them about 850fps.

 

[Rule3]

If you need "true expert" opinions on the ammo, post in the ammo section and you will get all kinds of great information

 

[Practical]

Can you use Federal Expanding Full Metal Jacket in NJ which have polymer insert under the jacket?

I think Federal GuardDog is the same idea?

If it is legal use it.

I don't think you have many choices. I would consider upping bullet diameter and adding mass in your case.

Small and fast is not as helpful as momentum if they poke through.

 

[fredj338]

Can you use Federal Expanding Full Metal Jacket in NJ which have polymer insert under the jacket?

I think Federal GuardDog is the same idea?

If it is legal use it.

I don't think you have many choices. I would consider upping bullet diameter and adding mass in your case.

Small and fast is not as helpful as momentum if they poke through.

With solids, you want to reduce mass to reduce penetration. A larger dia bullet will always make a larger hole & also slows penetration if mass is kept down. Why a 200gr 45 FP is probably ideal for a solid.

 

[lrrifleman]

Given the prevailing laws, I would love to get 185gr FMJSWC bullets like what use to be loaded in Winchester and Federal Match, but no one seems to be manufacturing them any more. Bullets with polymer filled hollow points (like the Hornady Critical Defense round) are currently legal in NJ, but I can imagine the Democrats pushing to make any defensively effective bullet illegal the moment that national reciprocity appears to have a chance at passing.

 

[Thomas15]

I think a problem is that a National Reciprocity law will not be much of a help for states like NJ/MD and so forth because they make getting an instate carry permit next to impossible to get. I live in the free state of PA and work in NJ, the law would allow me to carry to work but I doubt it will help those in NJ carry even in their state.

Having said that the Lehigh bullets being discussed are both expensive and a real chore to get out of the bore of your gun if you load a squib. I really don't see where they would be worth the possible issues.

 

[SMSgt]

Go to the market, buy a big pork butt, and shoot it with the newfangled ammo and decide if the results are worthwhile. until you do, you're relying on internet say-so.

 

[hdwhit]

lrrifleman wrote:
Second, for practice (cost of Lehigh's bullets are expensive) has anyone found a comparable lightweight bullet (or mold) that can be loaded for semi-affordable practice?

You didn't mention the cartridge you are shooting, so the only answer I can give is that any bullet of comparable weight should be a suitable stand-in at handgun ranges.

SMSgt gave you some very good advice in post #16. I would only add to it by suggesting that the piece of meat you buy have bones and connecting tissue just like a real living creature.

People use ballistic gel tests because they provide a consistent media that facilitates comparison. But, it is a mistake to think that they represent anything approximating "real world" performance. A human being is not an amorphous block of boiled cow hooves; a human body has skin, organs, bones, muscle, even open areas and all of these impact how the bullet performs. Gel tests may look cool, but as far as predicting the effect of shooting someone, they are for all intents and purposes meaningless.

 

[reddog81]

The only way to find out is to try it. You're supposed to try out any new ammo to make sure it cycles and feeds in your gun anyways. You can test accuracy and point of impact at the same time.

Any bullet with the same weight and velocity should impact pretty close.

 

[Wise_A]

I would select a .45. In lead, specifically. Either a shorter, fatter semiwadcutter, or a roundnose flatpoint. At least 200 grains, preferably 230, and 255 if I could find factory defensive ammo loaded like that.

If I had to use a 9mm, I would select the heaviest factory-loaded defense round I could get, also lead.

In .380, I would carry a standard jacketed bullet. Penetration far outstrips expansion at that point (excluding, of course, conventional expanding ammunition), you're just hoping to poke a hole in something important.

 

[fredj338]

Given the prevailing laws, I would love to get 185gr FMJSWC bullets like what use to be loaded in Winchester and Federal Match, but no one seems to be manufacturing them any more. Bullets with polymer filled hollow points (like the Hornady Critical Defense round) are currently legal in NJ, but I can imagine the Democrats pushing to make any defensively effective bullet illegal the moment that national reciprocity appears to have a chance at passing.

Flat nose solids are very effective, especially in larger calibers. Here is your 185gr fmjswc.
Federal Gold Medal 45 ACP Auto Ammo 185 Grain FMJ SWC

 

[smoothshooter]

In anticipation of the enactment of national reciprocity, I am looking closely at my self defense ammunition options under New Jersey law. Currently, FMJ, soft points, and lead are my only legal option. To date, the state has not enacted legislation to ban ammunition like Lehigh Defense's Fluid Transfer Monolithic bullets, which appear to have a greater likelihood of immediate incapacitation.

I have a few questions concerning FTM ammunition.

First, how does FTM ammo tend to "shoot to the sights" since it launches a lighter than usual bullet at significantly higher velocities? Does it tend to shoot high, low, or close to on target?

Second, for practice (cost of Lehigh's bullets are expensive) has anyone found a comparable lightweight bullet (or mold) that can be loaded for semi-affordable practice?

Thanks for your help!

Forget about National Reciprocity, not happenin'.

As for bullets, no need for anything fancy or expensive.
Use lead semi-wadcutters or hollow points.
Best all-around bullets ever made for handgun calibers, and some rifles. Cheaper, too.
Once you get away from FMJ and roundnose bullets, it doesn't matter much what you use.
Shot placement is what counts.
Remember that most people ( non-military ) that are shot are shot and successfully stopped by others with little or no firearms training and no interest or knowledge of what ammo they are using.

 

[fredj338]

Forget about National Reciprocity, not happenin'.

As for bullets, no need for anything fancy or expensive.
Use lead semi-wadcutters or hollow points.
Best all-around bullets ever made for handgun calibers, and some rifles. Cheaper, too.
Once you get away from FMJ and roundnose bullets, it doesn't matter much what you use.
Shot placement is what counts.
Remember that most people ( non-military ) that are shot are shot and successfully stopped by others with little or no firearms training and no interest or knowledge of what ammo they are using.

Yes but relying on luck to win your fight is not a good plan.
The question though was no HP, agree, a large flat point soft lead bullet is still a good fight stopper with decent shot placement.

 

[rwsmith]

When you say, "Fluid Transfer monolithic bullets"....

...do you mean the solid bullets with the 'impeller' designed to impart hydrostatic shock? IMHO those are gimmicks in the SD world. If you just mean a solid bullet, an FMJ does the same thing in humans, that is, pass through with little deformation. The Lehigh Bullets appear to be pretty 'mean', but I'll stick with a design that has a lot of testing and a lot of data from the field so that I can rely on it functioning the way it is supposed to. The well recognized makers of JHP ammo do this job well in my opinion. And as a second, I'll take a soft SWCHP.

 

[Wise_A]

That was what we said in Concealed Carry and Self Defense when the subject of Lehigh's designs came up, with significant complaining on the part of the OP when we called them gimmicks.

I place them one step above the infamous "R.I.P." ammo. Lehigh gets a point because they at least tried to responsibly market their snake oil.

 

[Bill Lear]

In anticipation of the enactment of national reciprocity, I am looking closely at my self defense ammunition options under New Jersey law. Currently, FMJ, soft points, and lead are my only legal option. To date, the state has not enacted legislation to ban ammunition like Lehigh Defense's Fluid Transfer Monolithic bullets, which appear to have a greater likelihood of immediate incapacitation.

I have a few questions concerning FTM ammunition.

First, how does FTM ammo tend to "shoot to the sights" since it launches a lighter than usual bullet at significantly higher velocities? Does it tend to shoot high, low, or close to on target?

Second, for practice (cost of Lehigh's bullets are expensive) has anyone found a comparable lightweight bullet (or mold) that can be loaded for semi-affordable practice?

Thanks for your help!

The concept behind the fluid transfer monolithic bullets isn't really new, but interestingly freshened up to make it legal.
Back in the 1970's a french company came up with a devastating handgun projectile known commercially as the "Arcane" bullet. It was basically a reverse ogive point design, also made from solid copper. Reverse ogive basically means the nose curved inward from tip to shoulder, and when driven fast, the bullet impacted with a "wedge" effect - producing a massive entry wound several inches in diameter and tapering down as the bullet slowed. The bullet was NOT designed to expand, and was intentionally light for caliber, around 67 grains in 9mm based on what I remember.
What killed the Arcane was that it was also advertised as being capable of penetrating Kevlar which made it a "cop killer" bullet and lead to it being banned even before it came onto the U.S. market.
When I first saw the Lehigh bullet I knew immediately the concept behind it and that it would be - is a high-energy transfer bullet that incorporates the fluidic transfer component into a blunt-nose "cross" design specifically designed to mae the bullet "Kevlar friendly," but of course the trade-off is rapid velocity loss and limited range. Being solid copper it tends to not deform and thus has penetration beyond what it's weight would suggest.
If one remembers back a few years, the earlier versions tended to mirror lead-core jacketed bullets, but have rapidly dropped in weight as on-going ballistics data received from the entire "market" have shown the full-weight slugs tend to "over" penetrate from a SD standpoint.

Along similar lines about 30+ years ago, experiments were being done using bullets cast from Pewter which is about half the weight of lead. The 9mm was the focus and showed similar terminal effect as the Arcane bullet when using a long-nose, truncated cone design which does in fact have "hydraulic" properties when going fast enough.

And one last point about bullets for autoloaders, the simple, jacketed semi-wadcutter, that is light for caliber is a readily available, high-energy transfer bullet due to nose design which is very much of the "Keith" style profile. All that is needed is to push it as fast as possible and the results in any fluidic medium will be explosive, though range would be limited due to rapid velocity drop.

As for bullet impact, generally, heavier bullets print "high" and lighter bullets print "low" because of the effect of bore time. At typically expected SD distances the difference in bullet impact based on brands, weights, and velocities is pretty small.

 

[rwsmith]

Maybe I should.....

I don't generally include body armor when talking about SD but maybe I should. Right now at close range of most SD situations a head shot is feasible. The TFE coated bullets were touted as body armor defeaters and outlawed as 'cop killers', I don't know where they stand now in light of polymer coatings being much more common.

Something that I think was before it's time was Speer Nyclads. That's essentially the soft SWC hollow point with a nylon coating. Too bad they were so expensive at the time. They may have caught on better. I guess companies didn't want to undersell their fancy jacketed ammo.

Then there were the Talons, marketed to cut a ragged hole in flesh. They pulled those off the market due to an outcry but quietly resold them under another name without the gory promises of destruction.

 

[lrrifleman]

I wish to thank the respondents for their insight.

Through the fog of my concussion, I "lost" the realization that high(er) velocity lightweight bullets print lower than heavier bullets, thank you for reminding me of that.

I am at a slight toss up as to which cartridge I would identity as an EDC, so initially a rotation would be in place, including: 45 ACP, 380, 38/357, 9mm, and potentially 38 Super. Lehigh offers FTM cartridges in all of the above, except 38 Super, so that round would have to be handloaded.

I like the idea of practicing, since I subscribe to the philosophy the more that you practice the less likely you are to needing the skills you practiced. I have noticed that the loaded Lehigh FTM defense ammo uses a projectile weighing about half the weight of the accepted standard combat load, 1.e: 380 w/ 65 gr, 9mm w/ 90gr, and 45 w/ 120gr. The 38/357 using extreme penetration rounds weighing 140gr, and controlled fracturing ammo weighing 105gr. The second half of my post was aimed at asking if anyone has found a source of comparable weight bullets or molds so practice ammo could be replicated.

At this stage of the "game", I would be tempted to rely on cold quenched semi-wadcutters handloaded for the 38/357 or the 45, 90/95gr FMJ for the 380, and 124gr quench cast truncated cone bullets for the 9mm/38 Super. My primary apprehension would be having to defend my use of handloads in a self-defense shooting. Because I like to practice, I have built confidence in my handloads.

 

[686-380]

I might have too, if I hadn't bothered to perform my own testing

That was what we said in Concealed Carry and Self Defense when the subject of Lehigh's designs came up, with significant complaining on the part of the OP when we called them gimmicks.

I place them one step above the infamous "R.I.P." ammo. Lehigh gets a point because they at least tried to responsibly market their snake oil.

Regardless, I don't malign another's choice. I may bring up hard evidence to the contrary. I try to avoid snide remarks.

Fir instance, most of the treadmills you find in big box stores are absolute junk...unless you walk exclusively.

I offer proof in the way of the Better Business Bureau. Choose a brand you find in the store and look at the reviews and complaints. Still, I'm not going to call out any brands. Some of us may be quite happy with their equipment.

I'm not as familiar with firearms or ammo, I purchased ballistic gelatin and have repeatedly tested Xtreme Penetrator and Xtreme Defense. While my experience level won't allow me to endorse either, the results speak for themselves. Especially in .380 as compared to hollow points.

 

[rwsmith]

You are right...

I really believe that the bottom is going to fall out of pork bellies, no sense in investing in them.

That dag gone new fangled invention called the horseless carriage just isn't going to catch on ... better to buy yourself a matched team of horses to pull your buggy!

I am sorry for having asked a reloading question in the reloading subforum ... had I wanted political insight I would have posted under 2A issues. I merely cited a rationale behind my question about ammo performance and reloading for same. It is great that some people can be treated as free men (or women) in a free state. Unfortunately, some of us don't have that luxury and are treated as subjects in our home state and left as vulnerable sheep outside the walls of our homes while we may be fortunate to have the rights of free men in other states by virtue of non-resident permits. I long for the day that I can relocate to free America, but until that day comes, I am stuck here and can only hope for national reciprocity ... hope is good ... people need something to look forward to ... it is how we progress!

In SC, if somebody is in my house that isn't supposed to be, I MIGHT have to make a statement to the police, but some cases are so clear cut that's about it. But other states, they can have a gun to your head and say they are going to kill you and you still have to prove 'just cause' and not use 'excessive force'. Even in AZ some years back a guy was attacked on a hiking trail and used his 10mm to defend himself. The law at the time could be construed to say that was 'excessive force' and the poor guy spent two years in jail before they modified the law. Even in a not so rigorous state like SC it's still too likely that you'll get in some kind of trouble for defending your self/family. My philosophy is shoot and take care of the details later. I have bought ammo for SD, but I like to think that I can put together good SD ammo without turning it into a weapon of mass destruction.

Oh, BTW: As per your comment, I've been experimenting with 158-165 gr soft SWCHPs for 9mm. It's hard enough to get load data and make a cartridge that will feed right but a problem I didn't anticipate was how much higher these bullets were going to shoot. The first time I let off a 165 gr, it went right over the target. I've backed down to 158 gr, but I haven't succeeded in getting any to shoot. I'm not REAL concerned about a little up and down variance to my shots as much as right/left, but a foot too high is pretty ridiculous. I'd have to aim at the belly button to get in the higher score of the center of mass.

 

[Wise_A]

Regardless, I don't malign another's choice. I may bring up hard evidence to the contrary. I try to avoid snide remarks.

You'd need to wait until it actually gets used, which is sort of the problem. There is no "hard evidence" (as if the burden was on me to disprove the claim) So I'm gonna jump ahead and explain how the boutique SD ammunition discussion works:

(1) Person A thinks Merlin's Magic Bullets are great, points to ballistic gelatin tests.

(2) Person B points out that there haven't been any documented cases of the new bullet design being used. Why bet your life on something that's unproven?

(3) Person A says, "But ballistic gelatin!" Discussion devolves into argument over "hydrostatic shock" and "permanent wound cavities".

One side relentless believes in ballistic gelatin, which is what (unfortunately) nearly all modern ammunition is optimized for, because so many people are captivated by it. And hey, it's not really bad stuff, just misused. The point isn't "wound cavities" and such--it's a great uniform, reproducible media for objectively testing penetration and reliability of expansion. It's just horribly misused because (a) it's clear, and (b) people like pictures and hate reading.

The other side bets on stuff with a longer track record. Which isn't bad, but it sure wouldn't have produced the mini ball, autoloading pistol, or hollowpoint bullet.

Snake oil just cuts to the chase. And it's remarkably apt. My favorite was when they said "terminal performance achieved is quickly approaching that of 5.56 rifle performance" without mentioning what cartridge they were talking about.

Xtreme Defense(R) Technology – Lehigh Defense, LLC

But hey, it's marketing. It's not meant to be read seriously.

People bought snake oil because they didn't have access to decent-quality health care and medicine. If some doctor told you he couldn't cure your consumption, you'd be pretty happy to plunk down for a bottle of cure-all, especially if it had a bunch of cocaine in it.

Same deal with boutique self-defense ammo. People want the comfort of knowing they've got "the best"--the best guns, training, ammunition, holster, etc. After all, if you have The Best, how could you lose? All of this stuff is a comforting swaddle against the uncertainty of the real world, where you can do everything right and still die in a ditch.

If your state restricted you from the overwhelming majority of quality, proven self-defense ammunition, Lehigh's offerings start looking real attractive. Especially when everybody on earth just knows that people just shrug off FMJs of all designs, and lead bullets just bounce off flesh.