In that 9mm grizzly story, what struck me is that the bear kept spinning around as shot after shot hit him. For some reason he chose to ignore the nearby human making loud noises and instead focus on whatever invisible critter was “stinging” him. I think that choice is why the guide/clients survived…
For All The Hard Core 45 ACP People
- Thread starter wood714
- Start date
Ladon Moten and an AZ DPS trooper shot a murder suspect 8 times with Norma 230 grain JHP and 9 or 10 more times with Winchester 9mm 115 grain +P+ Silvertips. He didn't stop returning fire with his 38 special revolver, which he reloaded under fire, until he bled out from a 9mm nick in his femoral artery.
So what?
So what?
Last edited:
Yep. People like to throw a wrench in the gear box. And see what what happens.......And they stand FAR away to not get splattered................Believe NOTHING YOU READ and only ONE HALF of what you see...........A lot of the internet is entertainment......Not fact.
cd228
Member
Intresting Video, thanks for sharing that. You can watch it multiple times looking at things like fighting mindset, ambush/counter ambush, actual hitting in combat, etc. It's a valuable case study.
I don't see a need to call out the .45ACP folks though. Smart folks already know that there are no magic bullets/calibers or universal best and that placement and sometimes dumb luck get key important votes. As Echo mentioned you can find examples of almost every round on the planet both succeeding or failing in a gun fight or someone surving something that should have killed them.
I don't see a need to call out the .45ACP folks though. Smart folks already know that there are no magic bullets/calibers or universal best and that placement and sometimes dumb luck get key important votes. As Echo mentioned you can find examples of almost every round on the planet both succeeding or failing in a gun fight or someone surving something that should have killed them.
Last edited:
Fastbolt
Member
That's one of the $64,000 questions, isn't it?
Aside from the dynamics of any particular set of circumstances in an unexpected and likely chaotic situation, it may come down to the effort that someone has invested in developing their skillset and practice regimen, as well as their mindset (relative to surviving and prevailing during encounters, even if injured).
If someone can access their skillset and utilize it at the unconscious competence level, and they have a mindset geared toward survival ... and Murphy doesn't decide to make an appearance to act against them ... being better skilled and practiced is arguably better than just acquiring some minimal skills and hoping they'll be sufficient for whatever situation comes along. Or carrying some caliber and hoping it will somehow offset a lesser investment in skills and practice.
I've long been a .45ACP aficionado, having carried a couple issued ones (2), and a number of personally-owned .45's (several), and I like heavier bullet weights, but I've also carried a number of issued .357MAG's, 9's and .40's over the years I carried an active badge and didn't feel inadequately equipped.
I tend to see caliber as a subset of the gear component, and not a particularly significant element, overall, at that. I carry more snub .38's, compact & subcompact 9's & .40's than any of my (several) .45's in my retirement. Mostly because of the size & weight. They all still get run through the usual qual courses-of-fire and practice drills to confirm I can still run them, though.
Awareness of the environment and an adequate knowledge base (laws, weapon and tactics) are more important, to me, than the specific caliber nowadays.
Folks can suit themselves, though, while remembering that every choice comes with potential consequences.
Echo40
Member
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2017
- Messages
- 4,040
- Reaction score
- 7,868
My sensei Colonel Jeb Cooter came up with an improved version known as the Moses M. Beak Drill.
2 to the pelvis.
2 to the chest.
2 to the head.
The first two shots break the pelvis, causing the perp to collapse, the next two knock the win out of them, and the final two take them out of commission.
Of course, this requires the user to be packing nothing short of a six-shooter to pull off, so guys with 5-shot snubbies will need to upgrade, but it cannot fail, or in the words of the Colonel himself; "Evun if it do, y'all can be sho' nuff they won't have no pluck left in 'em after you dun busted their ballz, teetz, n' teef!"
gunsnrovers
Member
Years ago, my coworker suffered a home invasion robbery and a number of his firearms were stolen.
A couple of weeks after the robbery, two of the three thugs got together and argued over who was going to get what. A shootout followed.
One had his Ithaca 1911 and one guy had his Walther PPK .22. The guy with the Walther went to jail and the guy with Ithaca is dead.
Surprisingly, San Diego PD let him have back the 1911 about 4 years after the incident. The serial number was ground off, but the ATF issued a new one and a local gun shopping grave for him.
The PPK and most of the other firearms were never recovered. Sadly those lost included his collection of Colt single actions he was saving for his retirement. A few trickled back over the years, including a 4” model 15 that came back from New York City.
A couple of weeks after the robbery, two of the three thugs got together and argued over who was going to get what. A shootout followed.
One had his Ithaca 1911 and one guy had his Walther PPK .22. The guy with the Walther went to jail and the guy with Ithaca is dead.
Surprisingly, San Diego PD let him have back the 1911 about 4 years after the incident. The serial number was ground off, but the ATF issued a new one and a local gun shopping grave for him.
The PPK and most of the other firearms were never recovered. Sadly those lost included his collection of Colt single actions he was saving for his retirement. A few trickled back over the years, including a 4” model 15 that came back from New York City.
Last edited:
SAFireman
Member
They all fall to 230 ball
Heck, the 45 ACP is so powerful, a man would drop dead if shot in the tip of a pinky finger
The 45 ACP 230 ball was invented to drop a horse with a single shot
The 10mm auto is the cause of global warming
The list continues.....
Heck, the 45 ACP is so powerful, a man would drop dead if shot in the tip of a pinky finger
The 45 ACP 230 ball was invented to drop a horse with a single shot
The 10mm auto is the cause of global warming
The list continues.....
He is lucky to be alive. No matter the caliber.
Clearly, the lesson to this story is we all need to carry 44 Mag and above. If it's a big perp, break out the S&W 500 just to be sure.
In all seriousness, I recently did continuing education within my field, and did an entire course on Suicide Investigations and also Gunshot Wounds. Needless to say, one of those suicides, was done with a self-inflicted chest shot by a 44 Magnum, and my Lord, the giant hole left in that poor man where his heart *used to be* and nothing but daylight through and through, is something I'll never forget.
Needless to say, as many know, often times handguns are underpowered compared to say rifles or even shotguns. However, big magnums and up, are really powerful on human targets.
Shot placement will always be useful though in trying to incapacitate someone who means you harm.
Clearly, the lesson to this story is we all need to carry 44 Mag and above. If it's a big perp, break out the S&W 500 just to be sure.
In all seriousness, I recently did continuing education within my field, and did an entire course on Suicide Investigations and also Gunshot Wounds. Needless to say, one of those suicides, was done with a self-inflicted chest shot by a 44 Magnum, and my Lord, the giant hole left in that poor man where his heart *used to be* and nothing but daylight through and through, is something I'll never forget.
Needless to say, as many know, often times handguns are underpowered compared to say rifles or even shotguns. However, big magnums and up, are really powerful on human targets.
Shot placement will always be useful though in trying to incapacitate someone who means you harm.
My patrol relief shift officer went to a suicide on I-40 near Continental Divide wherein a truckdriver shot himself in the chest with a Ruger Super Blackhawk and Remington 240 grain JSP. Blood spatter and post-trauma blood and fluid spray marks were spectacular inside the sleeper where he did the act, but the bullet stopped on his spine without exiting.
Some things don't happen as one would assume.
Some things don't happen as one would assume.
Buick
Member
I once shot a deer in the neck with a 12 gauge Foster slug from about 10 yards away and the slug did not exit. Deer expired rather hurriedly though.
Well Armed
Member
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2014
- Messages
- 1,109
- Reaction score
- 1,369
Depending on where they're shot and how fast help arrives.
StrawHat
Member
No. The 45 hits were center mass, the 9mm hits scattered. But the blood loss that killed him (he was a recently retired California cop who murdered his wife and took off) according to the autopsy was from the femoral artery artery tear.
I’ll take my chances with not having 15 large holes in me.
Echo40
Member
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2017
- Messages
- 4,040
- Reaction score
- 7,868
As long as we're not ruling out the supernatural, I feel in necessary to point out the distinct possibility that one who survives otherwise fatal injuries may not in fact be a servant of the Lord but perhaps an agent of chaos.
Don't presume that one who isn't destroyed by weapons of man is good. He could be a Vampire, a Werewolf, or any number of unholy creatures with unnatural fortitude or regenerative capabilities which render ordinary man-made incapable of killing it.
Sure, in this case it may very well be as simple as a pious man saved from death by divine intervention, but you don't hear many cases of that occurring, and when it does the person tends to walk away mostly unscathed, so I would sooner assume that this is simply a freak occurrence in which a rather resilient man survived a high volume of injuries.
Last edited:
