For Victory data base

[chiefdave]

Here is some additional documentation for 912361 that was a commercial shipment post DSC. E. K. Tryon Co.'s 12/9/41 purchase order for 10 revolvers, S&W's 12/11/41 response and the letter showing a single unit shipped on 2/2/42.

It's my understanding that after DSC took over the allocation of war materials that there should have been no commercial shipments of S&W firearms.

 

[kwill1911]

Very interesting. Thanks for posting.

 

[Absalom]

...

It's my understanding that after DSC took over the allocation of war materials that there should have been no commercial shipments of S&W firearms.

Peculiar things happen in war sometimes

I also find the price interesting. A week before, they shipped my 910507 to the DSC in the (supposedly more economical) utility configuration and charged $1.19 more per unit, a relatively substantial mark-up.

I wonder whether yours was a delayed fulfillment of an order placed and confirmed prior to the effective date of restrictions.

 

[Waveski]

I am sure that this has been covered many times , but I'll ask anyway -
At what point did production change from the detailed blued finish to the typical war era Victory (and DSC) finish that displayed prominent milling marks and Parkerization?

 

[Absalom]

I am sure that this has been covered many times , but I'll ask anyway -
At what point did production change from the detailed blued finish to the typical war era Victory (and DSC) finish that displayed prominent milling marks and Parkerization?

The story is a bit muddled and somewhat contentious, but just from contemporary documentation:
12/4/41 bright polish to brush polish blue
4/10/42 brush polish to sandblast blue (until 1945)
Short experiment with actual Parkerizing: May/June 1942

As far as stocks are concerned: The notes give the switch to smooth walnut as 1/1/42. Of course, as with all those changes, the dates are likely more precise than reality; there were usually transition periods.

I also just found out from a document by way of the SWHF that S&W tried to sell the British (the BPC) on smooth walnut stocks for the .38 M&P as early as July 1941.

 

[Waveski]

"Short experiment with actual Parkerizing: May/June 1942"
Please expand on this part. (above)
Thank you.

 

[Absalom]

"Short experiment with actual Parkerizing: May/June 1942"
Please expand on this part. (above)
Thank you.

I'm not sure anybody has really documented the full story on that.

The contemporary sources we have simply state that it happened.

The SCSW mentions it in passing: "Other than possibly for a very brief period of as few as five days in May of 1942, the Parkerizing process was not officially used ... " (4. Ed. p. 166)

The assumption has always been that S&W didn't want to pay the royalties to the Parker Rust-Proof Company which held the patents, probably after they decided it was no significant improvement over the sandblast Black Magic. But that's conjecture, as there seems to be no contemporary documentation to that effect in the open.

 

[ordnanceguy]

Interesting gun, Chief.

I like the Tryon G100 Purchase Order for 10 revolvers referencing "...Plant Protection Priorities A-1". Were the guns ordered really for "Plant Protection" purposes or was that just a ruse to get the P.O. fulfilled before all civilian sales were curtailed?

S&W's reply from Cy Bassett indicates that the P.O. will be "filed" and discourages the buyer from any expectation that the Order will be filled. And yet, less than 2 months later a single gun is shipped against the P.O.

One wonders: Were the other 9 guns shipped earlier, later or not shipped until after the cessation of hostilities? The Victory Database shows shipments to the Edward Tryon Co. in March, 1946 of 4 and 5 inch, blued, .38 Special M+Ps. Were these new orders, orders leftover from 1941 or maybe both?

One final nugget. The Database reveals that Chief Dave's revolver 912361 shipped 2/2/42 is the latest shipment of a pre-Victory to a civilian, non-DSC authorized destination that is recorded in the Database.

There is a lot to ponder here. Thanks for the post, Chief.

 

[mcb66]

Are there any pics of the "experimental" parkerization vs sandblast blue? just wondering...

 

[Absalom]

Are there any pics of the "experimental" parkerization vs sandblast blue? just wondering...

Not that I'm aware. There were only a bit over 2000 of the parkerized guns, all DSC, in the upper 900-thousands. We don't even know whether they look different enough to be recognizable, and whether the special finish is noted on the invoice so they'd be identifiable by the serial.

The contracts for the Colt Commando specified Parco-Lubrite, the Parker company's trade name, so these were actually Parkerized. Some years ago I tried some comparison photos of a 1943 Commando and 1944 Victory with about the same degree of wear. However, one needs to keep in mind that surface prep can be more important for the final appearance than the chemical formula and process; also, it is possible to manipulate the color tone.

 

[Absalom]

...
S&W's reply from Cy Bassett indicates that the P.O. will be "filed" and discourages the buyer from any expectation that the Order will be filled. And yet, less than 2 months later a single gun is shipped against the P.O.
...

It's unfortunate that Roy apparently didn't have a copy of the invoice for this gun to include with the letter, as he's been doing lately when available for members. It might have shed light on the matter of whether this one-gun shipment really was in any way related to the earlier P.O., or whether it was an earlier order or special circumstances.

 

[BibleronKJV]

With regard to parkerized finish, I have preVictory #975727 in 4 inch 38 spcl and in near mint condition which has a finish almost identical to my near mint Colt Commando. The preVic has a large 4mm high "S" on the right grip frame and a similar "S" on the rear of the cylinder beneath the star. No topstrap markings and no markings on butt except for serial no. Is it possible that this is an original parkerized S&W? Sorry, but am unable to do pix.

 

[Absalom]

With regard to parkerized finish, I have preVictory #975727 in 4 inch 38 spcl and in near mint condition which has a finish almost identical to my near mint Colt Commando. ...

No topstrap markings ....

Is it possible that this is an original parkerized S&W? ....

It certainly is possible. According to the Hellstrom notebook, quoted many times here over the years and confirmed by the source document, the parkerizing happened "around 980,000". Given the usual lack of precision in such records, that would certainly indicate enough leeway to put your gun's serial in the ballpark. How to actually confirm whether or not is a different story.

 

[DWalt]

"However, one needs to keep in mind that surface prep can be more important for the final appearance than the chemical formula and process; also, it is possible to manipulate the color tone."

Technically, "Parkerizing" is called phosphate conversion coating as phosphoric acid is the principal constituent of a phosphating bath. There are color tone variations of phosphate coatings possible depending upon what different metal ions are present in the phosphating solutions, generally either iron, manganese, or zinc. They can run from a medium gray to nearly black. It's a fairly porous coating, and the phosphating process also usually involves a final dip into a dichromate solution to impart corrosion resistance. A phosphate coating makes an excellent base for applying Teflon coatings on guns.

 

[Kurusu]

Here is some additional documentation for 912361 that was a commercial shipment post DSC. E. K. Tryon Co.'s 12/9/41 purchase order for 10 revolvers, S&W's 12/11/41 response and the letter showing a single unit shipped on 2/2/42.

It's my understanding that after DSC took over the allocation of war materials that there should have been no commercial shipments of S&W firearms.

Just a word of caution. It appers your cylinder is not fully locked in the closed position.

 

[Milesperhourffl07]

I have a victory model that does not have the smith and Wesson roll mark. It is marked US property v 5825** case hardened hammer and trigger. 5 inch barrel.

 

[Milesperhourffl07]

 

[Milesperhourffl07]

Any info would be appreciated!

 

[Absalom]

I have a victory model that does not have the smith and Wesson roll mark. It is marked US property v 5825** case hardened hammer and trigger. 5 inch barrel.

If you tried to attach a picture in post #17, that appears to not have worked. I can't see anything.

Are you referring to the Smith & Wesson name on the barrel, or the S&W logo on the sideplate? Both should be there, so either missing would be very odd.

Everything else sounds like a Lend-Lease British Service Victory from early/mid-1944.