News story says Govt just reversed a policy and will now allow sale of such triggers. Story also says such triggers allow AR-15 to continuously fire 'just like a machine gun' as long as trigger is held back. Can somebody fill me in? Knew there were triggers that enabled two shots per pull, but didn't know about any 'machine gun' triggers.
Forced Reset Triggers
- Thread starter erikpolcrack
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Bozz10mm
US Veteran
"Just like a machine gun" does not fit the NFA definition of a machine gun. The ATF settled the case with Rare Breed Triggers et al, with some concessions on both sides. ATF must return all triggers that were confiscated or surrendered. RBT agrees not to make forced reset triggers for handguns. Anti gun groups are losing their collective minds over this. Blood in the streets, etc.
I don't know of any triggers that allow two shots per pull, but there are some binary triggers that fire on pull and fire again on release.
I don't know of any triggers that allow two shots per pull, but there are some binary triggers that fire on pull and fire again on release.
Still haven't found out exactly how they work, but the Geissele SSP, with its short reset, can be fast.
Jon651
Member
I wonder if this ruling also applies to the "Switch" device made for Glocks?
OP
The firing on pull and release-type was what I meant in my post. Did the RBT triggers really enable the AR to continue to fire as long as held down?
TJm15.38
Member
These devices and triggers that enable rapid fire, almost fast as a machine gun, are of no use to me. This includes bump stocks, binary triggers and forced reset triggers. They defeat the principles of aimed and contolled fire. I guess if you want one to shoot real fast, go for it. It's just not my thing. Unfortunately, these devices have been used in mass shootings, the most notable one in Las Vegas during the first Trump administration. That gives the AR-15 and similar platforms a bad stigma as killing machines.
Binary Triggers, will fire one round when pulled, and one round when released.
I guess if you want to hit the target, you hold it back, then when on target, release it.
If you listen to Stars and Stripes, we Piccolo players, can trill really fast, on the top notes.
With the Geissele SSP, will I need a tax stamp?
I guess if you want to hit the target, you hold it back, then when on target, release it.
If you listen to Stars and Stripes, we Piccolo players, can trill really fast, on the top notes.
With the Geissele SSP, will I need a tax stamp?
LVSteve
Member
Yes and no. What happens with a forced reset trigger is that when the trigger breaks, a mechanism shoves the trigger and your finger back past the reset point. If you are using good follow through technique on the trigger, you will immediately trip the trigger again. To you finger, it feels like you have "held the trigger down" but the truth is that the trigger has cycled back and forth. Because of that cycling, the RBT device does not constitute a machinegun trigger.
OP
Thanks, Steve!
Bozz10mm
US Veteran
No, it does not. Glock switches are and always have been illegal unless registered. Well, not always...since 1934, heh.
BillyKframe
Member
Amen Brother!
Doug M.
Member
As far as I can determine, FRT are stupid range toys. They are not consistent with a serious use firearm and I cannot imagine a situation in which I would want one.
That's a balanced response, and I agree with you to the extent the presence of 14 AR-15s, all of which were equipped with bump stocks in the Las Vegas mass shooting didn't make the AR-15 look good.
If I recall correctly, he fired almost 1050 rounds through 12 of the AR-15s in a total of 10 minutes before (his) shooting stopped, at a range of around 490 yards. He also fired a handful of .308 rounds through a few scoped AR-10s at a fuel tank at McCarran.
I'm not and never have been a bump stock fan, and I think ATF screwed the pooch when they allowed them in the first place.
In this case, the poor accuracy that goes hand in hand with a bump stock, made it suitable only for engaging an area target at that distance.
Reportedly a bump stock AR-15 can fire 90 rounds in 10 seconds (assuming of course you have a C mag). That's 540 rounds per minute not counting mag changes, and not to far off the cyclic rate for an M16. if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
I didn't lose any sleep over it when the administration at the time banned them.
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I'm a little kinder to binary triggers, at least well designed binary triggers where you an cancel the second "on release" shot. They do make for a very fast an accurate double tap and a very fast failure to stop drill in a personal defense weapon.
*If* you get the cadence down precisely *and* can maintain the timing, you can arguably put out about 400 rounds per minute with a binary trigger, but for the average shooter 200 rpm is more practical and that compares to around 100 rpm with a regular semi auto trigger.
More importantly, the binary function is selectable, and most people I know who have them do 95+ percent of their shooting semi-auto, once they get past the initial fun with it.
I do have one on my SBRd and suppressed MP5 home defense PDW. A need for suppressive fire isn't a high probability in what is already a very low probability occurrence, but like having a self defense hand gun or PDW in the first place, its nice to have the capability in the rare event you ever find yourself needing it.
I also wear a parachute when performing aerobatics. I have no reasonable expectation of ever bailing out, but if the need ever does arrive, I'm gonna need that parachute real bad and right now.
I'm also not going to say that no one should be allowed to have a parachute as they don't need it. Same with any self defense weapon.
if you get down to the fact of the matter, all guns are stigmatized as "killing machines" by people that have hoplophobia.
Except that there are dozens of videos of how people make any semi-auto rifle fire with the same science as "bump stocks", with a rubber band/shoestring and their belt loop...
It's hard to ban a shoestring.
I agree, if the string isn't attached to the firearm.
Way back in the day, folks would attach a shoe string from the op rod, back through the oiler cut in the stock and back up to the trigger on an M1 carbine. With the correct amount of tension, and string length, the operating rod, upon reaching its full forward travel would pull the trigger and continue to do so until you gripped the string around the wrist of the stock to stop it.
In that case, it was actually attached to the rifle and one user activation of the trigger would result in multiple rounds being fired.
That was legitimately ruled "fully automatic". Fortunately the ATF did not take the next step of claiming the M1 carbine was "readily convertible to full auto fire.
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Times have changed. My thoughts were that if the ATF ever banned binary triggers, they would be easily able to ban all Mini 14's as the trigger mechanism can be converted to binary operation with just a office staple in about 2 minutes. That's readily convertible.
The same rationale could have been applied to an semi auto where its been demonstrated that it could be bump fired.
All of that got derailed with the court rulings we ultimately got.
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