Forcing cone erosion with 4227?

[SLT223]

This was from 50 rounds of 15.5gr and 6 rounds of 14.9gr under 158 JSP. The 14.9gr loads snad blasted me with unburned powder, so I just stopped shooting those. The 15.5gr loads were quite a bit better, or so I thought. I didn't realuze the damage until I cleaned the gun this evening. My poor Model 28-2 . I was trying to start low and work up the load. Not sure I even want to mess with this stuff any more.

Load: 357 Magnum
-bullet: 158gr JSP
-primer: CCI 550 small pistol magnum
-brass: various
-powder: IMR4227 - 14.9gr, and 15.5gr.
-crimp: heavy roll

Wow! What do I do with the other 7.9 pounds of this stuff?

 

[GypsmJim]

I switched to 4227 because of superior performance in a snubby. My load for 158 LSWC is 11.1 grains and they work awesome.

 

[Owly]

I just picked up some IMR 4227 today to use in 357 and 44 mag loads. Never used it before. I will be watching this thread to read others comments on this powder.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I tried it in some 38 special cases in my L frame and it could
barely get past a +p speed with a full case.

I then tried it in a magnum case with a 158gr Speer Jhp with
16 grs of IMR 4227 and like you, got a face full of powder.
Just glad I was wearing my shooting glasses!!
Lots of "Blow Back".

I also tried it in my J frame snub nose with some lead bullets
and the unburned powder, after the fourth load, locked up the
cylinder, where it would not open!!
I had to take it home and clean it, before I could get the
cylinder to open............

Some have good results with this powder.
It will be going on the lawn next spring...........

 

[SLT223]

I then tried it in a magnum case with a 158gr Speer Jhp with
16 grs of IMR 4227 and like you, got a face full of powder.
Just glad I was wearing my shooting glasses!!
Lots of "Blow Back".

I also tried it in my J frame snub nose with some lead bullets
and the unburned powder, after the fourth load, locked up the
cylinder, where it would not open!!
.

Yep, so much blew back through the cylinder of my 28-2 it accumulated under the extractor, pushing it out, and locking up the gun. First time in my life I've had a revolver jam up on me that wasn't a .22.

I left out part of the story, but I'll tell it now. It's good I always wear shooting glasses. I have what appears to be a couple shaving nicks just forward of my left ear...those would be IMR 4227 tattoo's...

 

[rwsmith]

I've been thinking about 4227.....

I've been thinking about 4227 but I think I'll pass.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Back when 357 Max was all the rage, it was discovered that 4227 and H-110/WW 296 had quit a bite of barrel erosion. The choice was get the top velocity and erode the barrel or save the barrel and shoot slower bullets. Most velocity freaks went to Dan Wessons with replaceable barrel liners. When you shoot sand down the barrel, it gets sandblasted! I had a hot carbine load for my Marlin, with a jacketed 158 over all the H-110 a 357 mag would hold. out of the Marlin it was quit a round. I got rid of the rifle and shot the remaining ammo out of my 28-2 4" and found it to be a very accurate load. 50 isn't going to hurt you revolver, but by the thousand it might. As to "What to do with 7.9 pounds of 4227?" Load lots of 22 Hornet! Ivan

 

[BLUEDOT37]

4227's likes a pretty full load to burn thoroughly but it does seem to throw particles out even still. I lay my open log book (reloading notes) on the firing range's shelf when I'm trying new work-up loads. One day I noticed all these little bumps on the open pages with the 460 load data on it. I held the sheet up to the light & it looked like someone had shot it with 22 rat shot. There were all these tiny holes all over it, some with powder grains still in it. Wow in deed!

Wow! What do I do with the other 7.9 pounds of this stuff?

Use it in a 460 Magnum & at just 40grs. per load, you'll only get about 175 rounds per lb. out of it. It goes fast!

.

 

[alwslate]

Many years ago I tried IMR4227 in a variety of 357 mag, 44 mag and
heavy 45 Colt loads. Lots of unburned powder granules in my guns
with all loads. When my can was empty I was glad and have never
wasted any money on another can. What to do with your 7.9 pounds?
Use it for rifle, sell or trade it or use for fertilizer.

 

[scooter123]

Your pic is a bit dark and too distant for me to see clearly that you've done any damage but that gray ring certainly indicates something was going on. Hopefully after a thorough cleaning you'll find the damage is near zero.

As for what to do with your remaining powder I can tell you with a bit of looking around you should be able to find a Rossi M92 rifle in 357 Magnum for around 500 dollars. I can also tell you that the Rossi is VERY easy to slick up the action on. In fact all you have to do is field strip the receiver, flat file the burrs from the machining out of the interior with a 220 grit stone, cut exactly 1/2 coil from the lever detent spring, and replace the ejector spring with one from Homestead Parts.

Once that is done you'll have a very accurate 1892 Winchester clone in a caliber that is simply ideal in a 4 1/2 lbs. rifle. You will also discover than the 357 Magnum is a lot more enjoyable out of a rifle and find yourself running out of powder a lot faster than you expected.

 

[SLT223]

Your pic is a bit dark and too distant for me to see clearly that you've done any damage but that gray ring certainly indicates something was going on. Hopefully after a thorough cleaning you'll find the damage is near zero.

As for what to do with your remaining powder I can tell you with a bit of looking around you should be able to find a Rossi M92 rifle in 357 Magnum for around 500 dollars. I can also tell you that the Rossi is VERY easy to slick up the action on. In fact all you have to do is field strip the receiver, flat file the burrs from the machining out of the interior with a 220 grit stone, cut exactly 1/2 coil from the lever detent spring, and replace the ejector spring with one from Homestead Parts.

Once that is done you'll have a very accurate 1892 Winchester clone in a caliber that is simply ideal in a 4 1/2 lbs. rifle. You will also discover than the 357 Magnum is a lot more enjoyable out of a rifle and find yourself running out of powder a lot faster than you expected.

Scooter, that grey ring is actually ordnance steel in the white. The damage is done unfortunately. I take pride in owning quality equipment and maintaining it in proper working condition, so this really annoys me. In 20 years I've never hurt myself, or damaged a gun...oh well.

I have a Winchester 1892 in 44 Mag, and tried this powder in it as well. At this point I'm generally concerned about subjecting my firearms to the scorching flow jet that is IMR 4227.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/404001-44-magnum-imr4227-flat-primer-21-7-grains.html

 

[RobertJ.]

I loaded some 158's (Speer) with 15.0 of IMR 4227 for my Rossi carbine, just to try. They worked great, they grouped right at 2" at 50 yards. I also tried that load in my 2.5" model 19-5, and it turned out to be one of the most accurate loads I've tested. I was able to put 10 shots into 2.1" offhand at 10 yards.

I didn't get any high pressure signs, so I could bump it up just a little. However, I load for accuracy and not power, and my results were so good initially, that's going to be my standard magnum .357 load from now on.

I didn't have any problems with unburned powder.

 

[SLT223]

I loaded some 158's (Speer) with 15.0 of IMR 4227 for my Rossi carbine, just to try. They worked great, they grouped right at 2" at 50 yards. I also tried that load in my 2.5" model 19-5, and it turned out to be one of the most accurate loads I've tested. I was able to put 10 shots into 2.1" offhand at 10 yards.

I didn't get any high pressure signs, so I could bump it up just a little. However, I load for accuracy and not power, and my results were so good initially, that's going to be my standard magnum .357 load from now on.

I didn't have any problems with unburned powder.

Glad to hear you had luck with it Robert. Would you mind sharing more details about your load? Specifically which bullet and primer did you use? Would you be willing to post a picture of your crimp?

 

[Satoken]

You need to show us "Before" pictures. I don't think just 50rds caused this. You just didn't notice the erosion until now. 4227 is a single based powder and burn lot cooler than ball powder, like H110.

 

[ironhead7544]

I would have the bore/cylinder alignment checked. The only time I have had a S&W blow back at me was with a M19 that was badly out of alignment. It was a new one that went back.

IMR4227 is generally easy on revolvers. Burns cooler. 2400 and 296 also leave particles in the revolver and can tie it up when they get under the extractor. If that is a problem for you, then AA#9 does not have that problem IME.

 

[SLT223]

You need to show us "Before" pictures. I don't think just 50rds caused this. You just didn't notice the erosion until now. 4227 is a single based powder and burn lot cooler than ball powder, like H110.

You may need before pictures, but I don't. I know this gun very well. It certainly did not look anything like that before yesterday. You don't need the heat associated with double base to cut steel. Just high pressure and abrasive is all it takes....like a flow jet.

 

[RobertJ.]

Glad to hear you had luck with it Robert. Would you mind sharing more details about your load? Specifically which bullet and primer did you use? Would you be willing to post a picture of your crimp?

I'll post a photo when I get a chance, but for now, here's the details: Case: Winchester (White Box, nickel plated)
Bullet: Speer 158 gr. JSP
Primer: CCI #550
Powder: IMR 4227, 15.0 grains
Crimp: Heavy (I was loading for a lever action w/ tube magazine)

 

[shil]

You may need before pictures, but I don't. I know this gun very well. It certainly did not look anything like that before yesterday. You don't need the heat associated with double base to cut steel. Just high pressure and abrasive is all it takes....like a flow jet.

But.... IMR 4227 is a single base powder.
Works great in my 629.

 

[oger]

I still use IMR-4227 as my go to powder for cast boolets in anything 357mag and bigger with a 4in or longer barrel. My 44 SBH has had thousands of 240 cast over 23gr of IMR-4227 rounds through it and the forcing cone shows no problems.

 

[muddocktor]

I've never shot 4227 in a pistol round, but used to use it to load 22 Hornet. Sorry to read and see what those loads did to your 28. As for what to do with the other powder, load it for use in a carbine like has been said or in a non-vented pistol, such as a Coonan Classic. I wouldn't be afraid to try those 15.5 grain 357's out in my Classic. Probably would make some nice fireballs.