Foreign name conundrum

[ralph7]

I have often wondered why a very large percentage of Vietnamese have the same last name-Nguyen.
I can envision a classroom where the teacher says "Will mister Nguyen please stand up?" and most everyone rises.
Why do so many folks have the same last name?

 

[Rustyt1953]

Is that like "Smiths" in the motel registry?

 

[bigwheelzip]

Since 1232, people there have changed their name to Nguyễn (阮), to avoid dynastic retribution.

Many events in Vietnamese history have contributed to the name's prominence.

In 1232, after usurping the Lý Dynasty, Trần Thủ Độ forced the descendants of the Lý to change their surname to Nguyễn.

When Hồ Quý Ly overturned the Trần Dynasty, he killed many of their descendants so when the Hồ Dynasty collapsed in 1407, many of his descendants changed their surname to Nguyễn in fear of retribution.

In 1592, on the collapse of the Mạc Dynasty, their descendants changed their surname to Nguyễn.

When the Nguyễn Dynasty (the descendants of the Nguyễn Lords) took power in 1802, some of the descendants of the Trịnh Lords fearing retribution changed their surname to Nguyễn, while others fled north into China.

The Nguyễn Dynasty awarded many people the surname Nguyễn during their rule, and many criminals also changed their surname to Nguyễn to avoid prosecution.

For a truly different naming convention, look to Icelandic names, where surnames are not inter-generational.

A man named Jón Einarsson has a son named Ólafur. Ólafur’s last name will not be Einarsson like his father’s; it will become Jónsson, literally indicating that Ólafur is the son of Jón (Jóns + son). The same practice is used for daughters. Jón Einarsson's daughter Sigríður’s last name would not be Einarsson but Jónsdóttir. Again, the name literally means "Jón’s daughter" (Jóns + dóttir).

 

[ralph7]

Interesting history, Bigwheelzip, but I was wondering how such a common name could be used for identification and recognition purposes.
Smith and Jones don't touch this.

 

[bigwheelzip]

Why do so many folks have the same last name?

Well that was why they do. Perhaps their given names allow enough differentiation for their needs. I guess the same goes for other Asian cultures, such as Koreans.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

In these parts, we have a number of Sikhs.
They are all, I think, named Singh.
Years ago now I was looking at a house for sale by a Sikh, yes! Named Singh.
The paperwork said the owner was 'Billy Bob Billy' or similiar.
So I say, who is this Billy Bob Billy?
He got a little embarrassed and replied, that was me before I converted.
I guess when they take a roll call they just use first names.

 

[Onomea]

Pretty good, 'Zip! Now, how come all those Korean folks go by Kim? Must be about a third of the country.

Back in the '70s in NYC, I used to have a Chinese fellow — I think he was an ethnic Chinese from Vietnam but I don't properly recall — working for me whose last name, as written on his time card and pay check, was "Ng." Everybody called him "Mr. Wong." (Sure made shouting his name out easier!)

 

[DWalt]

Sikh (India) baptismal names are all "Singh" (Lion) for males and "Kaur"(Princess) for females. Females maintain the Kaur name after marriage. But the Sikhs have lots of first names which are gender neutral, and only the pronunciation of the first name denotes gender. And the first names usually have some religious meeting. Very complicated. I worked with an Indian-owned company for awhile, a number of Singhs were there, but not actually relatives.

 

[bigwheelzip]

Now, how come all those Korean folks go by Kim?

Korea’s long feudal tradition offers part of the answer. As in many other parts of the world, surnames were a rarity until the late Joseon dynasty (1392–1910). They remained the privilege of royalty and a few aristocrats (yangban).

Slaves and outcasts such as butchers, shamans and prostitutes, but also artisans, traders and monks, did not have the luxury of a family name. As the local gentry grew in importance, however, Wang Geon, the founding king of the Goryeo dynasty (918–1392), tried to mollify it by granting surnames as a way to distinguish faithful subjects and government officials. The gwageo, a civil-service examination that became an avenue for social advancement and royal preferment, required all those who sat it to register a surname. Thus elite households adopted one.

It became increasingly common for successful merchants to take on a last name, too. They could purchase an elite genealogy by physically buying a genealogical book (jokbo)—perhaps that of a bankrupt yangban—and using his surname.

Because family names such as Lee and Kim were among those used by royalty in ancient Korea, they were preferred by provincial elites and, later, by commoners when plumping for a last name.

 

[Tyrod]

Hey You! Who needs names? Who's on first?......

 

[Jessie]

I think Bigwheel stayed at a Holiday Inn recently.
Amazing grasp of the Orient.
They attach more meaning and identification to their first names because of all that past feuding.

 

[shouldazagged]

I watched the movie of "West Side Story" a few years ago, and kind of wished I hadn't when I compared the gang "rumbles" with what goes on today. But I had to laugh when the male love interest (was that Richard Beymer?) walked down the street singing "Maria" at the top of his lungs. In a real Puerto Rican neighborhood, half the windows on the block would fly open.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

I know a retired NYC Cop here in town who has a long multiple syllable name.
Everytime I try to recall his name I up keep coming up with ' Trentadue.'
They are CA winemakers and super neat people.
Their name is of course is 32 in Italian.
So are there really folks in Italy named 32?
Or is that an Ellis Island anomaly?
Strange things happened to names there.
I know several folks , like my buddy Bob whose family lost their 'Ski' there.
He was a Chicago ' Panek.'

 

[Old TexMex]

I notice that"Patel" is Indian and really common in the motel industry. One gentleman told me it meant "Indian gentleman".or "village leader".

 

[Muley Gil]

A businessman is transferred to a new city. He is walking down Main Street looking for a dry cleaner when he spots Ian O'Malley's Chinese Laundry. Intrigued, he stops in. A older Chinese gentleman is at the counter. The businessman asks to speak with Ian O'Malley. The Chinaman states that HE is Ian O'Malley.

The businessman asks, "How did you get that name?" The Chinaman says that when he entered the US through Ellis Island, the immigration officer asked the gentleman in front of him, "Name please." The gentleman answered, "Ian O'Malley." The Chinaman stepped up next and the immigration officer asked, "Name please." The Chinaman said that he answered, "Sam Ting."

So that's how "Ian O'Malley's Chinese Laundry" came to be.

 

[rwsmith]

Russian Patronymics

In reading books about Russia, I think they are talking about a different person when they use the patronymic form, usually more informally, that is a derivative of the father's name. Even worse, Joseph Vissarionovich is Stalin whose real last name was 'Dzugashvili' as early revolutionaries changed their names to prevent identification. Stalin actually means 'Man of Steel'. But even everyday people's names can be confusing when a name pops up that you aren't familiar with turns out to be the same person. Russian chess players often refer to each other by the familiar patronymic and I think, " Who the blank is that? Did I miss something???". Boris Spassky becomes 'Boris Vasilievich'.

It helps when you know that the '..ovich' and '...evich' are usually patronymics for men and '..ovna or evna' are usually patronymics for women.

 

[ParadiseRoad]

...yearbook photos...

 

[rwsmith]

EXTREMELY

I notice that"Patel" is Indian and really common in the motel industry. One gentleman told me it meant "Indian gentleman".or "village leader".

Some Indian names that we may know are extremely shortened versions of their full name. A man I knew whose first name was two syllables and last name was three syllables real name was many words of several syllables about a mile long.

 

[rwsmith]

A common question of....

I know a retired NYC Cop here in town who has a long multiple syllable name.
Everytime I try to recall his name I up keep coming up with ' Trentadue.'
They are CA winemakers and super neat people.
Their name is of course is 32 in Italian.
So are there really folks in Italy named 32?
Or is that an Ellis Island anomaly?
Strange things happened to names there.
I know several folks , like my buddy Bob whose family lost their 'Ski' there.
He was a Chicago ' Panek.'

A common question asked of East European people is, "What was your name before you changed it?" And some really got their names massacred at Ellis Island.

Why doesn't anybody talk of 'Angel Island' which was the west coast equivalent of Ellis Island?

 

[Whitwabit]

There are a lot of doctors from India ancestry in the US with last name Patel also ..

there are 5 to 10 in my area I have 2 with that last name ..

 

[Old TexMex]

There are a lot of doctors from India ancestry in the US with last name Patel also ..

there are 5 to 10 in my area I have 2 with that last name ..

Not to mention Rocky Patel of cigar crafting fame.

 

[Salty RI]

There are a lot of doctors from India ancestry in the US with last name Patel also ..

there are 5 to 10 in my area I have 2 with that last name ..

Where I worked in Ma there were a lot of people from India, living in that city they were all Patel's, most of them had convenience stores.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

I tread that in China they only have 200 family names.
Korean women do not take their husbands names.
Years ago I read an article in a martial arts magazines by a writer named Soet. He said when he made reservations he used the name "Smith". When asked if his was a rare name he said it's 4 pages in the Amsterdam phone directory.
In Russian/Soviet practice addressing someone by their name and patronymic is the polite form. "Gospodin/Gospozha"-Mister/Mrs-was more or else eliminated after the Revolution, "Grazhdanin/Grazhdanina"-Citizen-was used only when you didn't know someone's name, "Tovarish"-Comrade-is only for Party members.

 

[the ringo kid]

Hey You! Who needs names? Who's on first?......

3rd base.................

 

[DWalt]

Where I worked in Ma there were a lot of people from India, living in that city they were all Patel's, most of them had convenience stores.

Or cheap motels. Patel is a common name in the Indian state of Gujarat. I'm not sure what its meaning is, but it's somehow related to caste. At one time I had two different Patels (both engineers) working for me, really bright guys.

A sizable number of Indian immigrants came to the United States in the 1960s and 1970s, as that was not too difficult then. Many of worked in blue collar jobs and saved up to buy undervalued or dilapidated properties, turning them into businesses. Many mid-sized motels and hotel properties all over the US are owned by people of Indian origin. Of this nearly one-third have the surname Patel.

At that time, owning a business made it easier to bring relatives from India into the USA as employees under immigration law. Motels also provided places for the family members to live. I couldn't count the number of "Patel Motels" I have stayed in. I well remember staying in one of them in Warner-Robins GA for several months when I was on a job at nearby Robins AFB. The Patel who ran it was a real entrepreneur and a very nice guy. In addition to the motel, he ran an accounting service, a tax preparation service, a computer repair business, and a couple of other odd businesses I don't remember. And there were at least seven or eight other Patels living there and working for him. They do indeed have a good work ethic and I doubt many live off welfare.

 

[Bruce51]

This is a very interesting thread and I would like to throw another name into the mix.

My son married into a family from Thailand or Loas and there are children with the last name of Keomanivong.

Now the name Vong is a Dutch name taken I assume from the Traders of the Dutch East India company.

Keo seems to mean King. Mani in context of King and Vong I can find nothing that makes any sense.

How did this name relate to the people who may have been trading with the Dutch?

My research has lead nowhere and if anyone knows the answer I would love to hear the connection.

It's a long shot but the smartest people I know are on this forum.

Bruce

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Speaking of Thais - knew a Thai couple who had a God awful long name that us guys couldn't pronounce
and it was too long to put on their jewelry store sign.
So when they truncated their name they became 'Nixon.'

 

[amazingflapjack]

viet namese sir names

Interesting history, Bigwheelzip, but I was wondering how such a common name could be used for identification and recognition purposes.
Smith and Jones don't touch this.

There are only 300 sir names in the VN culture. Identity is with the other 2 names. Much like the Southern practice of adding Mr. or Miss to the "first" name.

 

[Bkreutz]

My last name is Breitkreutz, I thought my last name was "uhhh" until the 4th grade. The teacher would come to my name checking attendance and say "uhhhhh" and I'd answer "here". Funny thing is that my name was shortened when my family emigrated to the US in 1934, it was one of those compounded monstrosities so they just kept the last name on the list.

 

[Beemerguy53]

I have often wondered why a very large percentage of Vietnamese have the same last name-Nguyen.
I can envision a classroom where the teacher says "Will mister Nguyen please stand up?" and most everyone rises.
Why do so many folks have the same last name?

Smith and Jones in the English language...Kim in the Korean language...Singh among Indian Sikhs...Wong in Chinese...Schmidt in German...Sanchez in Spanish...

Every language features some very common names...