Forged triggers & hammers

[herbie1]

Some of S&W's revolvers (most Pro Series & Performance Center I think) are fitted with forged triggers & hammers. What is the advantage of this. Does it shoot better? Is the trigger better/smoother? Is it just hype? I assume the alternative is MIM?

H.

 

[Bullseye Smith]

Feelings go both ways on the subject, it's like Chevy and ford - understand? The MIM is good for a gun to slick up the action, and the forged are better to look at and take to the range once a year. The forged is hard to come by, so you don't what to waste one to shoot 5000 rounds and try to find a new one to replace every year. I like them both myself

. It is up to WHAT - WHEN - WHERE = my TWO CENTS.

 

[bountyhunter]

Here is how many cases I have ever heard or seen of a SW MIM trigger or hammer failing:



Exactly.

My only real problem with their MIM trigger and hammer is they are babboon butt ugly and they use the frame mounted firing pin which I don't like.

 

[john traveler]

Forged, machined, and case-hardened hammers and triggers has been the legacy manufacturing method of choice for S&W and other gun makers for well over 100 years.

The advantages to forging are many: forging refines the grain structure, making it stronger, and the 100% machining makes the part look nicer. Downside is the forging/machining/heat treating is expensive.

Starting with post WWII production, manufacturers like Remington, Winchester, Colt, H&R, and others have gravitated to aerospace methods of small parts production using powdered metal technology, slicing extruded billets with the hammer or trigger profile, induction brazing, MIM, and various other processes to make the parts cheaper and faster. Ruger took the precision investment casting route, and produced a line of wildly popular and sucessful firearms. To this day, only Marlin still uses the classically forged and machined parts in it's lever action rifles.

MIM parts, frame mounted firing pins, and IL safeties won't kill us long-time S&W revolver lovers, but it sure can make us cry when the modern products are compared to what they were just a few years ago.

 

[herbie1]

I get the impression that forged parts (i.e. trigger and hammer) little, if any impact on performance or reliability. In other word, it is just hype.

H.

 

[allglock]

Originally posted by herbie1:
I get the impression that forged parts (i.e. trigger and hammer) little, if any impact on performance or reliability. In other word, it is just hype.

H.

LOL

 

[scott625b]

The meat on your finger and the bones in your hand will give out before the MIM trigger and hammer will break. Change is painful to some. Remember how the purists complained when the forward pass was added to football. The game has never been the same. Remember when the doped canvas covering on the biplane wings was replaced by a riveted aluminum skin? What were they thinking? Airplanes have never been the same since. Just my 2 cents.

 

[john traveler]

Well, maybe for some of you younger fellas the MIM parts look and function okay, but most of us "oldtimers" crave the attention to detail, fine machining, fine hand-fitting, and real craftsmanship that went into making the old S&W revolvers. Much of that is now sadly missing. You have designs that don't require the precise hand-fitting (frame mounted firing pin, MIM trigger & hammer), crummy-looking mold marks, and contours that were obviously molded into place instead of machined and polished. You have small parts that were formerly machined and ground to fit and now drop out of a mold and popped into the action. These are not engineering changes that result in a superior product, they are cost-cutting measures that give a facsimile of what S&W factory output USED to be! This is not canvas-and-dope replaced with monococque aluminum skin to give higher speeds and manuervability, it is cost cutting to make the product more "affordable".

Ask yourself this: does the output of today's S&W Performance Center (custom handguns) come even close to the standard guns that came off the production line a generation ago? If your answer is a shakey NO, then you can see my point.

 

[Revolver King]

The performance center still use the forged hammers and triggers, but with out a doubt the quality control of yesteryear is GONE!

 

[allglock]

Originally posted by Revolver_King:
The performance center still use the forged hammers and triggers, but with out a doubt the quality control of yesteryear is GONE!

Amen!!

 

[stevieboy]

I agree, forged hammers and triggers are prettier. I would rather stare at a forged hammer or trigger than a MIM model. But, when the gun is out there at the end of my arm and I'm pulling the trigger I can't tell or feel the difference. Forged and MIM work equally well and the fact that a gun has MIM parts is absolutely no barrier to my buying it.

 

[toroflow1]

Well, maybe for some of you younger fellas the MIM parts look and function okay, but most of us "oldtimers" crave the attention to detail, fine machining, fine hand-fitting, and real craftsmanship that went into making the old S&W revolvers. Much of that is now sadly missing. You have designs that don't require the precise hand-fitting (frame mounted firing pin, MIM trigger & hammer), crummy-looking mold marks, and contours that were obviously molded into place instead of machined and polished. You have small parts that were formerly machined and ground to fit and now drop out of a mold and popped into the action. These are not engineering changes that result in a superior product, they are cost-cutting measures that give a facsimile of what S&W factory output USED to be! This is not canvas-and-dope replaced with monococque aluminum skin to give higher speeds and manuervability, it is cost cutting to make the product more "affordable".

Ask yourself this: does the output of today's S&W Performance Center (custom handguns) come even close to the standard guns that came off the production line a generation ago? If your answer is a shakey NO, then you can see my point.

+1, very well said. While the MIM (cast pot metal I call them

) parts work just fine and are durable, it is an obvious cost cutting measure and definitely CHEAPENS the finished product. I will never own one EXCEPT for my .500 which only comes with the cast parts (and infernal lock, but I won't get into that!).

 

[Bullseye Smith]

Well they are like everything else, a 1950 Chevy got the same MPG as a new one today and it had twice the steel in it

. So use the new stuff for fun guns and save the old for lusting time for us older people.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Originally posted by john traveler:
Well, maybe for some of you younger fellas the MIM parts look and function okay, but most of us "oldtimers" crave the attention to detail, fine machining, fine hand-fitting, and real craftsmanship that went into making the old S&W revolvers. Much of that is now sadly missing. You have designs that don't require the precise hand-fitting (frame mounted firing pin, MIM trigger & hammer), crummy-looking mold marks, and contours that were obviously molded into place instead of machined and polished. You have small parts that were formerly machined and ground to fit and now drop out of a mold and popped into the action. These are not engineering changes that result in a superior product, they are cost-cutting measures that give a facsimile of what S&W factory output USED to be! This is not canvas-and-dope replaced with monococque aluminum skin to give higher speeds and manuervability, it is cost cutting to make the product more "affordable".

Ask yourself this: does the output of today's S&W Performance Center (custom handguns) come even close to the standard guns that came off the production line a generation ago? If your answer is a shakey NO, then you can see my point.

+2

 

[tops]

Those MIM guns are made out of pot metal and pewterfit.Owning a good gun and shooting a POS is the same as owning a Rolls Royce and driving a Ford because you don't want to wear out the RR. If you don't use it why have it? An old man told me one time that guns are like women. He feels better when he has a good looking one with him. I understand that and as for fixing a high dollar gun when it wears out, just remember that it cost more to go first class but it is worth it. Larry

 

[jspick]

I don't post very much but I just have to say I prefer the forged hammer/trigger.

There are shooters and they don't really care as long as it shoots. I have a few guns I feel that way about.
There are collectors/shooters and they appricate the craftmanship and skill that goes into making and fitting the firearm. They view the gun as a piece of art put together by an artist. I have a couple such guns.

I hate to see the craftmanship departing from anything, but accept the superior design and material of todays guns.

There is a time and place for both in this world.
John

 

[bountyhunter]

Originally posted by tops:
Those MIM guns are made out of pot metal and pewterfit.

Sigh.....

MIM is NOT at all like a cast part except for the coincidence that both use a mold.

MIM parts are made out of powdered steel which is sintered hot enough to fuse it into a solid piece.

It is never liquid metal, it is not cast. The density of a cast part is about 60% of a forged part, the density of an MIM part is 95+% compared to forged.

 

[Farmer17]

I think the MIM parts are great. I just don't want them on my Smith revolvers. Put em' on a Ruger, Kimber, Glock, Taurus, Sig,....whatever. I just like my Smith revolvers the way they made them 20+ years ago with fine machining, beauty, and grace.

 

[skeete]

I wonder why the Remington 870 Police model has no MIM parts while the Express 870, non Police model has MIM parts.
MIM parts are 98% less dense which means it has 2% less metal besides the grain structure issues, etc. If I needed a Pace Maker I would not buy it at Walmart or buy one with MIM parts.
Colt used to use MIM extractors in their 1911's but they found the breakage rate unacceptable from a repair and cost point of view. It was a very bad application for MIM parts. They still use MIM for the sear, mag release, and disconnector but those parts do not flex like an extractor.
Think how strong concrete is in compression but how would you like a concrete diving board.

 

[jeep]

I would take forged carbon steel over MIM Stainless any day. Its harder better wearing and smoother. As for stainless its softer.